More issues with RC2
markjmeans
10:46:09.847 INFO main Main:138 Starting PCGen v6.08.00 RC2 10:46:09.967 INFO main LanguageBundle:134 Initialising language bundle with locale en_US. 10:46:19.673 LSTWARN main CampaignFeatToken:56 FEAT has been deprecated, use ABILITY: and put CATEGORY: entries in the LST file 10:46:51.613 SEVERE Thread-2 SourceFileLoader:248 Failed to load sources pcgen.persistence.PersistenceLayerException: You must select at least one campaign to load. at pcgen.persistence.SourceFileLoader.loadCampaigns(SourceFileLoader.java:482) at pcgen.persistence.SourceFileLoader.execute(SourceFileLoader.java:244) at pcgen.gui2.util.StatusWorker.construct(StatusWorker.java:72) at pcgen.gui2.util.StatusWorker.construct(StatusWorker.java:40) at pcgen.gui2.util.SwingWorker$1.run(SwingWorker.java:160) at java.base/java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
And while not a problem with RC2 specifically, there is a long standing problem with PCGen and the paper format. PCGen should detect the OS culture settings and if it is US/English, should set the paper size to Letter instead of A4. I don’t know how many sheets of paper I’ve wasted because of this.
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saxumcaribetum
On 2018-12-14 18:30, markjmeans wrote:
oh no! please do not rush to fulfil this request! Like all too many programs, PCGen actually defaults to US/English in the first place, and you have to fiddle to get it to "OS language". Don't track the language! There is already a "Paper Type" setting on the Preferences > Output page, same tab where you set the output style sheets, and choose whether to save output with PC, print spells, print weapon proficiencies, and print default skills. A really useful page of settings. -- Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente" ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++ Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/ Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - https://www.facebook.com/subrosamagazine/
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markjmeans
Reread my request again. I haven’t asked for changing the PCGen UI language based on Windows language setting. ONLY the paper format.
If you use PCGen and export a PDF with the A4 setting, then load the PDF in Acrobat you see no obvious clues that the format was the wrong paper size. But if you print it to a printer that has Letter paper size you either get a print with margins that are not visible or you get a print with shrunk blurry text.
Having been a professional programmer since MS-DOS 3.x, I feel that 99+% of all “professional” Windows programs ever developed, starting with way back in the Windows 286 days, have a default page size setting based on the Windows culture setting or in later Windows versions based on the paper size setting specified by the Windows’ default printer. Using the Windows OS provided settings for printing defaults is the recommended behavior for all Windows programs and not doing this detracts from the intuitive nature and common behavior expected by any Windows user. PCGen should do the same.
PCGen should either read the Windows culture specific settings, or read the Windows default printer settings’ page size property and set the PCGen A4/Letter size accordingly. This should be done at first run only, or during the installation process or the page size setting drop down in PCGen should have a new default option “OS Default” when using Windows.
From: main@pcgen.groups.io <main@pcgen.groups.io> On Behalf Of saxumcaribetum via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 1:30 PM To: main@pcgen.groups.io Subject: Re: [pcgen] More issues with RC2
On 2018-12-14 18:30, markjmeans wrote:
oh no! please do not rush to fulfil this request! Like all too many programs, PCGen actually defaults to US/English in the first place, and you have to fiddle to get it to "OS language". Don't track the language! There is already a "Paper Type" setting on the Preferences > Output page, same tab where you set the output style sheets, and choose whether to save output with PC, print spells, print weapon proficiencies, and print default skills. A really useful page of settings. -- Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente" ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++ Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/ Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - https://www.facebook.com/subrosamagazine/
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Stefan Radermacher
Hey Mark,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
so if you're a profssional programmer, why not help out with issues that are bothering you personally, but where the code team does not have the time or opportunity to work on? Everyone can submit a pull request. Cheers, Stefan Am 15.12.18 um 18:15 schrieb markjmeans:
Reread my request again. I haven’t asked for changing the PCGen UI
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markjmeans
I have no experience in Java. Nor do I find any professional need to learn it in my particular windows exclusive application development. Nor do I want my current C# coding speed diminished by errant thoughts of a similar language like Java.
From: Stefan Radermacher Sent: 12/15/2018 9:30 AM To: main@pcgen.groups.io Subject: Re: [pcgen] More issues with RC2 so if you're a profssional programmer, why not help out with issues that are bothering you personally, but where the code team does not have the time or opportunity to work on? Everyone can submit a pull request. Cheers, Stefan Am 15.12.18 um 18:15 schrieb markjmeans: Reread my request again. I haven’t asked for changing the PCGen UI
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Hi Mark, 1) Not being a program meant to be specific to a particular OS,
I'm not overly concerned about this. A "critical" or "blocker" bug
is classified as - Did it break the program or did we lose major
core functionality? I wouldn't release an RC3 for a mere glitch
for Windows not being able to figure out the program is an RC2 vs.
RC1. I am going to do an RC3 for several fixes/features that were
discovered missing that I feel should make the 6.08.00 release,
but not because Windows has issues. If you felt this is important
enough to warrant concern why haven't you opened a bug for it? 2) I don't control HOMEBREW sources,
anything I cannot control is irrelevant to our release schedule.
We have a support team on Discord and here to assist you update
your out-of-date set. FEAT is an illegal tag, and should have been
converted to ABILITY back in 6.06.00 if not sooner. The team
focuses on things we control and manage. If you want support for
your homebrew, ask for the help, and we will gladly tell you what
you need to update/change/convert to be compliant with the current
version. 3) As #1 states, we are an OS Neutral Program. Coding in OS specific settings requires folks who have the knowledge. I have *NEVER* had an issue creating PDFs nor printing them, and I have been using PCGen for 17 years. Merely set your paper settings in the preferences and you'll be fine. To tag onto Stefan's comment, if you won't do the code, at least point out a source that our team can reference to tackle the issue. I've always held to a principle of point out the problem and a potential solution if possible. I wasn't aware that cross-training in multiple languages was considered a detriment. And for actual bugs, we have a BUG tracker system located here --> https://pcgenorg.atlassian.net where all the issues can be discussed or solutions presented. Cheers, Andrew On 12/14/2018 10:30 AM, markjmeans
wrote:
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markjmeans
Hi Andrew,
As for the remainder of your comment… Try developing two different programs, pascal and C, at the same time. The languages are so close in syntax you quickly get mired in the peculiarities of the two and spend a lot of time bug-fixing and referring to API docs. This is not efficient coding. Efficient coding is 100+ lines of debugged functioning code per hour per developer, not 700+ lines of code per month per developer. As an example, in the summer of 2005 I started writing a Windows XP application that was ready for deployment in 9 months. It had over 100,000 lines of code (comprising modules written in VB, C++, and 8051 assembler), not counting auto generated code from UI creation tools I used. And not counting the code from the early parts of the project that were deleted or replaced as it was being developed. There was only myself and one other developer working on this project. I produced 95+% of the VB code (the bulk of the application), perhaps 10-15% of the C++ code (high level USB driver interfaces, the other guy did the low level part). You need a singleness of mind and concentration to produce debugged code at that rate. My primary focus now is C# programming on multiple projects with a huge combined code base, and I am the only developer. I cannot afford to get distracted by a similar syntaxed and structured language. Now if PCGen had been written in Cobol, RPG, Fortran, LISP or ASSEMBLER (all of which I have programmed in), then that would be something else entirely as they are all completely different coding syntax and style and could never be confused with C++, C# or Java.
As for JIRA, I wanted to post on the forums first (specifically the null error message issue and the font issue) to see if anyone else (not developers) encountered the same problem. Anyone with JAVA SDK development tools checking it might not encounter the same error if the problem was related to the JRE set installed in windows installer version of PCGen. But I suppose there are so few Windows users who subscribe to the forums or perhaps all other Windows users just all the data sets (by default). I don’t know. Either way, a confirmation of an error on a non-JDK installed machine could have identified the problem. In my case, while the null error went away when I uninstalled and reinstalled (as I identified above) this is not confirmation of the cause since I have not again uninstalled and reinstalled without selecting _universal to confirm that the problem returns since it is completely irrelevant if _universal should not be able to be deselected in the first place.
Mark
From: main@pcgen.groups.io <main@pcgen.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andrew Maitland via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 5:05 PM To: main@pcgen.groups.io Subject: Re: [pcgen] More issues with RC2
Hi Mark, 1) Not being a program meant to be specific to a particular OS, I'm not overly concerned about this. A "critical" or "blocker" bug is classified as - Did it break the program or did we lose major core functionality? I wouldn't release an RC3 for a mere glitch for Windows not being able to figure out the program is an RC2 vs. RC1. I am going to do an RC3 for several fixes/features that were discovered missing that I feel should make the 6.08.00 release, but not because Windows has issues. If you felt this is important enough to warrant concern why haven't you opened a bug for it? 2) I don't control HOMEBREW sources, anything I cannot control is irrelevant to our release schedule. We have a support team on Discord and here to assist you update your out-of-date set. FEAT is an illegal tag, and should have been converted to ABILITY back in 6.06.00 if not sooner. The team focuses on things we control and manage. If you want support for your homebrew, ask for the help, and we will gladly tell you what you need to update/change/convert to be compliant with the current version. 3) As #1 states, we are an OS Neutral Program. Coding in OS specific settings requires folks who have the knowledge. I have *NEVER* had an issue creating PDFs nor printing them, and I have been using PCGen for 17 years. Merely set your paper settings in the preferences and you'll be fine. To tag onto Stefan's comment, if you won't do the code, at least point out a source that our team can reference to tackle the issue. I've always held to a principle of point out the problem and a potential solution if possible. I wasn't aware that cross-training in multiple languages was considered a detriment. And for actual bugs, we have a BUG tracker system located here --> https://pcgenorg.atlassian.net where all the issues can be discussed or solutions presented. Cheers, Andrew On 12/14/2018 10:30 AM, markjmeans wrote:
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Jasper Bogers <joabogers@...>
Being a polyglot developer is generally considered a plus in the world of software development; not a detriment. Not everyone's ability stretches that far and that's fine if it puts bread on the table for you, but do everyone a favor and show some respect to the folks who invest their time maintaining this thing for all of us.
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 22:45 markjmeans <markjmeans@... wrote:
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Hi Mark, The problem with an all-volunteer project, is the volunteers
focus on what matters to them the most. The main reason why Java was the language used is exactly the
point of this conversation, it's meant to be a cross-platform
language, without anyone focusing on the particular cultures or
patterns in different operating systems. Regarding #3 - In order for a volunteer to focus on an OS-centric
issue requires the ability to replicate the problem, and the
knowledge or understanding to address it. When you suggested that
giving a solution to a problem was a far-fetched issue, it meant
to me you thought I wanted you to find the proper solution in our
own code base and submit a PR. Instead, I meant you seem to have a
vast knowledge of this OS-Centric world and patterns, and would
have a much easier time in pointing a developer to a
website/wiki/knowledge base article/help ticket that speaks to
this issue with a Java language bent. I wasn't asking you to fix
the problem, but at least help out the person who will come along
and try to work on it. We have Linux, Mac and Windows developers,
they need a point of reference to handle issues pertaining to
specific issues relating to OS. I'm still in the dark about this abstract concept of the paper size. How does this setting even come into play? Are you using the direct print option, or does this happen when you create a PDF? I use a Standard US sized paper on a standard printer and with some crazy exceptions where the Header and body separated (page size limits exceeded in the body forcing a page break into the next page), have never had an issue with printing sheets using the PDF option (I like having a digital copy of all the characters on hand). Next we have the perception - Yeah, the project could well be
circling the drain, maybe not, the number of PRs, commits, and
activity on the three main communication networks says the
community is quite active and not in a death spiral. But hey
perception is what people make of it. Buggy software? Maybe the content is buggy, or there is a perception, but to be honest, most of the bugs reported are merely a typo, a feature that cannot be supported yet, or a misunderstanding of the rules themselves. I filter through roughly 50 issues in any given month. The volunteers normally resolve half of them through the online support, and the other half make it into an issue. Of those most are homebrew support, misunderstanding of the rules or in a few cases an actual issue we can address. Now, in the grand scheme of the developer hours - Where should I ask my java developers to concentrate their efforts?
The Formula System is also being integrated in the talks to disconnect the UI from the code so it can be dynamic. Allowing for the code to remove the hardcoded tight coupling of d20-centric rules that have no use in systems like Starfinder, 5e, and non-d20 games. Basically, the improvements take away a d20-focused tag system,
to a game system neutral interface to allow for intuitive content
creation, that focuses on single task input/output. Now, consider this, if I were to actually lose program functionality on Windows OS, then that would be a higher priority for the team to focus on. That's a fundamental function - if you cannot use the product, then features are useless. When we lost the ability to create a MacOS build, we discovered they could still run the jar or sh file we included. When Linux users couldn't use the sh file, we scrambled to find a fix to the end of line issue and get that resolved. It's not that we don't care about Windows, MacOS, Linux, etc.,
but where in the big picture does a paper printing issue, and a
typo for a version number fit into the priority scale when there
is no functionality loss. Who would know that the version is
incorrect for your discovered method? Most users look at the top
of the bar and see the version displayed there, the folder it's
installed in has the correct version, so not to belittle or
downplay the report here, but there seems to be a very small niche
of users who would even discover the issue(s) brought up here.
It's a credit to you for discovering them, but if I need a
Windows-Centric professional developer to find these issues, are
they really a major/critical concern in the grand picture for the
development of PCGen? Who are the active developers? Kar & Bryan are mainly focused on PR reviews. Tom is focused on leading the Formula System replacement. He is
also working on getting the nightly builds back up and running and
the web server resolved. Eitan is focused on updating libraries, refactoring existing code and streamlining processes (He wiped out several dead libraries and a few unused files). Javier is available to assist with the build releases and even the Windows Installer. Andrew Wilson has been working on improving our prettyLST into
TidyLST a program written in perl. And takes a look at the
eccentric bugs I ask him to assist me with. We have 5 new volunteers who are learning the code base, and focusing on either the UI or other areas of interest to themselves. I won't consider them officially active until they begin participating in the project - PR reviews, submit PRs, or collaborate on issues of interest to the team. All of them have a task/project they are focused on. That's the active developers on the programming side (Java or others). For the content side, Regan and Gwen are my active book and bug fixing crew.� I have a non-team contributor by the handle of net-diver who submits a few PRs a month for fixes here and there. And I typically get one-off PRs from assorted community members with a patch of the day. I don't believe the team is dismissive of issues, but where do the issues you report fall? What effort does it take to address them? Recall you sent me quite a list about content issues. Many of which are difficult to address correctly with the existing system, but could be managed easier with the replacement formula system. I have 20 pending content bugs waiting on the new system, and a handful of open Code requests that will drop off when the formula system takes over. One of your Pathfinder Society prestige deals required knowing whether a Skill was already granted as a class skill or not, something the new system addresses. Taken into context, the formula system replacement is a huge deal, handling a lot of outstanding issues left unresolved for well over a decade in some cases. Your concerns are not falling on deaf ears, but either they
cannot be addressed today, or they are not a high enough priority
to be addressed today. As to attracting/retaining volunteers, well, I presume when we streamline the code base into a less imposing monolith, (Drop JEP/Old System, and all the support tags tied to those 2 systems), then we will have more participation. But you never know why people do what they do. As to poor reporting, submit the issue in a separate post here or
on Discord, and post the error. We can always request better error
reporting from the code team. And meanwhile, tell you how to find
and fix the error. That's why we have volunteers willing to answer
questions. Anyways, it's late and I need rest. Cheers, Andrew
On 12/15/2018 11:05 PM, markjmeans
wrote:
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Russell
Never had an issue with printing, and as a non american, I have never had a single microsoft product select A4 as the correct paper, instead always defaulting to US letter, so it seems harsh to expect different from pcgen. Changing the printer defaults in the OS does seem to do the job most of the time.
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markjmeans
Andrew, I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote. I would like to discuss this in more depth. But it will have to wait for tomorrow as I am traveling today. Please, everyone understand that I'm not trying to disparage anyones effort with my comments. It's very difficult to convey full meaning when they're are no verbal queues, as there is in discussions such as this. Nothing I've written is to be taken to be derogatory or accusatory, though I can see how it could be perceived as such to someone who is hyper sensitive or unfamiliar with me. I discuss and debate all the time and never get mad. Concerning perl. I worked with perl on a small graphics cgi home project many years ago. That's an area I may be able to help with. More on that later. In case it isn't clear, if anyone has taken my comments as a personal attack, I'm sorry. It's is not my intent. Though I will not change my behavior to be excessively passive or sensitive in order to eliminate that possibility. I'm replying via my phone so there may be typos in the above. Mark
From: Andrew Maitland via Groups.Io Sent: 12/16/2018 2:28 AM To: main@pcgen.groups.io Subject: Re: [pcgen] More issues with RC2 Hi Mark, The problem with an all-volunteer project, is the volunteers
focus on what matters to them the most. The main reason why Java was the language used is exactly the
point of this conversation, it's meant to be a cross-platform
language, without anyone focusing on the particular cultures or
patterns in different operating systems. Regarding #3 - In order for a volunteer to focus on an OS-centric
issue requires the ability to replicate the problem, and the
knowledge or understanding to address it. When you suggested that
giving a solution to a problem was a far-fetched issue, it meant
to me you thought I wanted you to find the proper solution in our
own code base and submit a PR. Instead, I meant you seem to have a
vast knowledge of this OS-Centric world and patterns, and would
have a much easier time in pointing a developer to a
website/wiki/knowledge base article/help ticket that speaks to
this issue with a Java language bent. I wasn't asking you to fix
the problem, but at least help out the person who will come along
and try to work on it. We have Linux, Mac and Windows developers,
they need a point of reference to handle issues pertaining to
specific issues relating to OS. I'm still in the dark about this abstract concept of the paper size. How does this setting even come into play? Are you using the direct print option, or does this happen when you create a PDF? I use a Standard US sized paper on a standard printer and with some crazy exceptions where the Header and body separated (page size limits exceeded in the body forcing a page break into the next page), have never had an issue with printing sheets using the PDF option (I like having a digital copy of all the characters on hand). Next we have the perception - Yeah, the project could well be
circling the drain, maybe not, the number of PRs, commits, and
activity on the three main communication networks says the
community is quite active and not in a death spiral. But hey
perception is what people make of it. Buggy software? Maybe the content is buggy, or there is a perception, but to be honest, most of the bugs reported are merely a typo, a feature that cannot be supported yet, or a misunderstanding of the rules themselves. I filter through roughly 50 issues in any given month. The volunteers normally resolve half of them through the online support, and the other half make it into an issue. Of those most are homebrew support, misunderstanding of the rules or in a few cases an actual issue we can address. Now, in the grand scheme of the developer hours - Where should I ask my java developers to concentrate their efforts?
The Formula System is also being integrated in the talks to disconnect the UI from the code so it can be dynamic. Allowing for the code to remove the hardcoded tight coupling of d20-centric rules that have no use in systems like Starfinder, 5e, and non-d20 games. Basically, the improvements take away a d20-focused tag system,
to a game system neutral interface to allow for intuitive content
creation, that focuses on single task input/output. Now, consider this, if I were to actually lose program functionality on Windows OS, then that would be a higher priority for the team to focus on. That's a fundamental function - if you cannot use the product, then features are useless. When we lost the ability to create a MacOS build, we discovered they could still run the jar or sh file we included. When Linux users couldn't use the sh file, we scrambled to find a fix to the end of line issue and get that resolved. It's not that we don't care about Windows, MacOS, Linux, etc.,
but where in the big picture does a paper printing issue, and a
typo for a version number fit into the priority scale when there
is no functionality loss. Who would know that the version is
incorrect for your discovered method? Most users look at the top
of the bar and see the version displayed there, the folder it's
installed in has the correct version, so not to belittle or
downplay the report here, but there seems to be a very small niche
of users who would even discover the issue(s) brought up here.
It's a credit to you for discovering them, but if I need a
Windows-Centric professional developer to find these issues, are
they really a major/critical concern in the grand picture for the
development of PCGen? Who are the active developers? Kar & Bryan are mainly focused on PR reviews. Tom is focused on leading the Formula System replacement. He is
also working on getting the nightly builds back up and running and
the web server resolved. Eitan is focused on updating libraries, refactoring existing code and streamlining processes (He wiped out several dead libraries and a few unused files). Javier is available to assist with the build releases and even the Windows Installer. Andrew Wilson has been working on improving our prettyLST into
TidyLST a program written in perl. And takes a look at the
eccentric bugs I ask him to assist me with. We have 5 new volunteers who are learning the code base, and focusing on either the UI or other areas of interest to themselves. I won't consider them officially active until they begin participating in the project - PR reviews, submit PRs, or collaborate on issues of interest to the team. All of them have a task/project they are focused on. That's the active developers on the programming side (Java or others). For the content side, Regan and Gwen are my active book and bug fixing crew.� I have a non-team contributor by the handle of net-diver who submits a few PRs a month for fixes here and there. And I typically get one-off PRs from assorted community members with a patch of the day. I don't believe the team is dismissive of issues, but where do the issues you report fall? What effort does it take to address them? Recall you sent me quite a list about content issues. Many of which are difficult to address correctly with the existing system, but could be managed easier with the replacement formula system. I have 20 pending content bugs waiting on the new system, and a handful of open Code requests that will drop off when the formula system takes over. One of your Pathfinder Society prestige deals required knowing whether a Skill was already granted as a class skill or not, something the new system addresses. Taken into context, the formula system replacement is a huge deal, handling a lot of outstanding issues left unresolved for well over a decade in some cases. Your concerns are not falling on deaf ears, but either they
cannot be addressed today, or they are not a high enough priority
to be addressed today. As to attracting/retaining volunteers, well, I presume when we streamline the code base into a less imposing monolith, (Drop JEP/Old System, and all the support tags tied to those 2 systems), then we will have more participation. But you never know why people do what they do. As to poor reporting, submit the issue in a separate post here or
on Discord, and post the error. We can always request better error
reporting from the code team. And meanwhile, tell you how to find
and fix the error. That's why we have volunteers willing to answer
questions. Anyways, it's late and I need rest. Cheers, Andrew On 12/15/2018 11:05 PM, markjmeans
wrote:
[The entire original message is not included.]
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markjmeans
Hi Russell,
That’s not my experience with German and Dutch OEM editions of Windows when using HP business class printers. (I’ve built about a dozen systems for a European reseller of mine that were resold to his customers, using Windows 7 and 8). None of my customers reported to me that they had to change the paper size (which I expect would have been the case during the end users initial training since I didn’t specifically set any of those properties during the installation). Though to be fair, perhaps a sample size of a dozen nearly identical installations cannot be assumed to be indicative of common experience.
In my own testing, I only found issues with paper size in the reverse of what I described when I was testing various localizations of my Windows application in XP. In that testing I used a US/English version of Windows XP and installed the multi-language pack to get the internationalization controls for date formats, number separators, keyboard layouts, etc. rather than installing the German and Dutch specific versions of XP. This was also tested with US/English versions of windows 7 Ultimate which had the ability to add German and Dutch language packs. In those cases, the printer drivers, when installed, defaulted to US/English settings even though the current Windows language was set to German or Dutch. It seems to me that something internal to Windows specified that English was to be used be English was the core OS install. And since I didn’t have any A4 paper I never had to change anything. I can only guess that something like that may have happened in your case or perhaps the drivers for your specific printer or the printer’s firmware (if the page size settings are held in the printer itself) were not specifically localized to your country. I would also guess that this kind of issue (defaulting to Letter page size even when installed on a EU language OS) would be more likely on lower end printers or lower end printer manufacturers. But without specifically testing an identical setup to yours, I don’t have an specific explanation for your experience.
That all being said, as you indicated that you can select the printer default in the OS and then the application honored it. This is in fact all I’m asking PCGen to do. Honor the OS specified setting upon installation. But still allow the user to select something else if they wish. PCGen shouldn’t be locked to the OS setting. Ideally, PCGen upon first run should be fully functional and localized to whatever the user’s OS specifies at the time PCGen is installed as long as PCGen fully supports that localization. The preferences dialogs should not even need to be opened except in special circumstances.
Mark
From: main@pcgen.groups.io <main@pcgen.groups.io> On Behalf Of Russell
Never had an issue with printing, and as a non american, I have never had a single microsoft product select A4 as the correct paper, instead always defaulting to US letter, so it seems harsh to expect different from pcgen. Changing the printer defaults in the OS does seem to do the job most of the time.
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William LaSalle
I have tested on multiple vm now and a couple of 2012 and 2016 servers in our dc with none of these issues including one server in Portuguese
On Mon, Dec 17, 2018, 1:42 AM markjmeans <markjmeans@... wrote:
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Tom
I used to use Open Office for a long time and was constantly having to switch the paper size to US Letter while it constantly switched back to A4. I live in the US, installed on a US version of Windows 10 and had the UK English dictionary installed into Open Office for the language support in my dealing with UK companies. I understand from reading the rest of this topic that you have not had that experience. You have had the default for Windows appear nearly every time. I've check my default settings on both my business class HP printer and Windows and in other programs and they seem to not have the problem that Open Office was having. Yes, I did check my Open Office default settings and they were set to US Letter for default page size. Why would I have that problem if all my defaults were set to US/English with only the dictionaries for British/English being loaded? Genuinely curious as I've had the same problem with Apache Office and LibreOffice to the point where I have had to uninstall and reinstall without those dictionaries in all three programs to get the problem removed. No, I have not loaded Windows with anything other than US/English as the default settings, ever. Something else that I have noticed in the things that you have typed, and it begs a question: Do you program as your main job? (no need to answer in a reply) If so then you are paid directly for the work that you have done. Those things with VB and C++ were your main source of income. My understanding of the PCGen Dev team is this is secondary to their primary income. Meaning they can't singularly focus on the issues that are not inherent to the main functionality as you have done in your work. If it were their only means of income then I would agree with you that tighter integration with the OS might be more of a priority. Keep in mind that each OS, as you probably know, has its own issues with integration. That in mind keeping something that is to be OS neutral has its issues with something as simple as reading default paper sizes across the differing OS. It would necessitate a much larger download and server space then their received donations allow.
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On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 03:21 PM, markjmeans wrote:
In case it isn't clear, if anyone has taken my comments as a personal attack, I'm sorry. It's is not my intent. Though I will not change my behavior to be excessively passive or sensitive in order to eliminate that possibility. And I hope you don't expect the rest of us to change our behaviours toward people who seem to think they are talking to a corporate support team who are getting paid to do any of this regarding a product for which you have paid handsomely. If you acknowledge that it's likely your comments are being misconstrued as "personal attack", "trying to disparage anyone's effort", "derogatory or accusatory", yet refuse to alter your communication style, don't expect anyone to be all that receptive to what you have to say. You don't need to be excessively passive or sensitive to achieve respectful conversation. I am surprised this discussion continues. The entry in the uninstall isn't the right number. That's not a tragedy, and definitely not worth a bolded opinion to delay release.
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markjmeans
Hi Tom,
In C# what I’m asking for is extremely simple when called from the main thread as long as no program call was used to set the current culture prior to this call. The main thread starts with the current OS specified culture setting. Child threads inherit the current setting of the calling thread.
string paperSize = (System.Threading.Thread.CurrentThread.CurrentCulture.Name == “en-US”) ? “Letter” : “A4”;
To instead get the setting of the default printer you would use:
string paperSize = System.Drawing.Printing.PaperSize.PaperName;
If this is not possible in Java, then fine. If it is that easy, well….
Mark
From: main@pcgen.groups.io <main@pcgen.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tom
I used to use Open Office for a long time and was constantly having to switch the paper size to US Letter while it constantly switched back to A4. I live in the US, installed on a US version of Windows 10 and had the UK English dictionary installed into Open Office for the language support in my dealing with UK companies. I understand from reading the rest of this topic that you have not had that experience. You have had the default for Windows appear nearly every time. I've check my default settings on both my business class HP printer and Windows and in other programs and they seem to not have the problem that Open Office was having. Yes, I did check my Open Office default settings and they were set to US Letter for default page size. Why would I have that problem if all my defaults were set to US/English with only the dictionaries for British/English being loaded? Genuinely curious as I've had the same problem with Apache Office and LibreOffice to the point where I have had to uninstall and reinstall without those dictionaries in all three programs to get the problem removed. No, I have not loaded Windows with anything other than US/English as the default settings, ever. Something else that I have noticed in the things that you have typed, and it begs a question: Do you program as your main job? (no need to answer in a reply) If so then you are paid directly for the work that you have done. Those things with VB and C++ were your main source of income. My understanding of the PCGen Dev team is this is secondary to their primary income. Meaning they can't singularly focus on the issues that are not inherent to the main functionality as you have done in your work. If it were their only means of income then I would agree with you that tighter integration with the OS might be more of a priority. Keep in mind that each OS, as you probably know, has its own issues with integration. That in mind keeping something that is to be OS neutral has its issues with something as simple as reading default paper sizes across the differing OS. It would necessitate a much larger download and server space then their received donations allow.
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markjmeans
Hi Frost,
Facts and opinions are just that. In the past “some” people have told me that I was too blunt and should phrase things differently to coerce them. I think changing what someone communicates in order to coerce someone else into a specific way of thinking is fundamentally dishonest. It’s better to give facts, clearly stated opinion, and reasoned logic wherever possible. If the result is hard for someone to accept, then so be it. I would hope the vast majority of people can take what I write as though it were an observation of a perceived problem. Nothing more. With no emotion at all.
I disagree, obviously, about the uninstall entry. Small things that are easy to fix should always be given the highest priority. If it were built with a Visual Studio Installer Project it would be as simple as replacing a single string in the project properties dialog. A grand total of no more than 30 seconds of work. “Great things are done by a series of small things put together” – Vincent Van Gogh.
Concerning your comment about, and I paraphase, paying more attention when printing; the whole point of any software is to make some task easier for the user by automation. The issue with the paper size in the USA has been an issue for decades since localized versions of DOS (and other later operating systems for home users) and helps a large segment of the user base from accepting a substandard visual printout, many of which may never even notice that it is substandard. And some of which will see a printout from Hero Lab and decide to use that. I’m not saying that someone will make a decision solely on the appearance of the printout, but it is all the little things that come together when a person decides what software they want to use. All those little things together are important.
The same thing applies with the uninstaller in Windows. A user that has hundreds of programs installed may or may not see it in the uninstall list in Windows simply because it is not listed as PCGen. Since users may have multiple versions installed at the same time, the product name entry in the uninstall list should contain the word “PCGen” followed by the version number, such as “PCGen 6.08.00RC1”. This, by the way should also be the label on the desktop icon. Apt-get packages in Linux are a strongly named with version numbers, it is conspicuous that the package for Windows is not.
Mark
From: main@pcgen.groups.io <main@pcgen.groups.io> On Behalf Of Frost
On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 03:21 PM, markjmeans wrote:
And I hope you don't expect the rest of us to change our behaviours toward people who seem to think they are talking to a corporate support team who are getting paid to do any of this regarding a product for which you have paid handsomely. If you acknowledge that it's likely your comments are being misconstrued as "personal attack", "trying to disparage anyone's effort", "derogatory or accusatory", yet refuse to alter your communication style, don't expect anyone to be all that receptive to what you have to say. You don't need to be excessively passive or sensitive to achieve respectful conversation. I am surprised this discussion continues. The entry in the uninstall isn't the right number. That's not a tragedy, and definitely not worth a bolded opinion to delay release.
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markjmeans
Hi William,
Thank you for checking, but I’m unclear on what you have confirmed….
Are you saying that with Portuguese specific version of Windows Server 2012/2016 that Portuguese (or international) versions of Microsoft Office and other MS softwares all default to A4 without issue; and, when using US/English versions of Windows Server 2012/2016 and US/English or international versions of that the same softwares default to Letter?
Or are you saying that in your testing that Portuguese versions of Windows or other MS software is always defaulting to A4?
Any discrepancy in the coding of this default setting would be specific to the software. The traditional way is to write the software to be responsive to the locale by querying the default printer’s driver to provide the page size setting, and if that fails or there is no default printer installed, to rely on the Windows current culture setting and default to Letter only for US-English and A4 everywhere else. This only happens upon installation and from that point forward it is usually under user control. Long ago, printers used fan-fold perf paper and the setting was even more important than it is today, especially for business forms, invoices, etc. So professional international softwares usually tried to default to the appropriate page size. That standard has endured in most softwares, but perhaps not necessarily in new software; at least not until someone points it out.
Mark
From: main@pcgen.groups.io <main@pcgen.groups.io> On Behalf Of William LaSalle
I have tested on multiple vm now and a couple of 2012 and 2016 servers in our dc with none of these issues including one server in Portuguese
On Mon, Dec 17, 2018, 1:42 AM markjmeans <markjmeans@... wrote:
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Anestis Kozakis <kenosti@...>
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 at 15:36, markjmeans <markjmeans@...> wrote:
I am a blunt and to the point speaker. Ask anyone who knows me. However, I do not do it in the fashion you did. I am still respectful and considerate. You put a lot of people off (including me) by claiming how great a coder you are and the projects you worked on and blah blah blah. You tried to elevate yourself above everyone else, proclaiming that you were better than everyone. And you came across as dismissive to the development team of PCGen, who are volunteers. I know a lot of coders and they never speak or even send e-mails like the ones you did. I also know a lot of coders who know multiple programming languages, and they have no issues with switching between them, so your comment about "diluting your skills" or however you put it was very elitist. You program in C#. Big deal. You don't need to laud it over them. and it doesn't make you an expert in Java. You've worked on large scale development projects. Big deal. So have these guys. If you called mny support line and spoke to me the way you spoke to the dev team, your issue and ticket would end up int he low priority queue. Pull your head in re-evaluate the way you communicate. As others have said, they have no issues with printing in PCGen and paper size selections (including myself). Also, PCGen is a volunteer project. Either submit a bug report to have the issue fixed, and someone will volunteer the time to do it, otherwise if it's that urgent to you, join the team and fix it yourself. But don't sit there on your high horse and try to tell others how great you are and how bad they are. That's disrespectful.
Anestis (one pissed off IT support person). Anestis Kozakis | kenosti@... - "In Numenera, players are not rewarded for slaying foes in combat, so using a smart idea to avoid combat and still succeed is just good play. Likewise, coming up with an idea to defeat a foe without hammering on it with weapons is encouraged - creativity is not cheating!" - Numenera Core RuleBook - Page 102
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Wireless Engineer
Apache OpenOffice 4.1.6 released (View topic) • Apache OpenOffice Community Forum Just updated yesterday, see if they addressed the printer issue.
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