Topics

Add language to 3.5

Ramon Menendez
 

About a month ago I was able to add the language "Read Lips" to the language file but I can remember how I did it.  I have search the files for were the languages are but it keeps referring to "Skillii" file... and there isnt one that I can find..... any help would be appreciated.

@Ferret_Dave
 

This file:  \data\35e\wizards_of_the_coast\rsrd\basics\rsrd_languages.lst 
is possibly what you edited, however any time you update pcgen that will be overwritten, so you'd be better off looking at the tutorials on how to add homebrew - essentially just add a simple my_homebrew.pcg file, that has an entry to a my_homebrew_languages.lst file, that contains the additional language you need.


 

Steven High
 

As a caveat, file alterations get sticky when you move between versions. Part of the problem lies with PCGen itself; there really is no version control worth the name, so that as more files are piled on, they sometimes supercede, sometimes complement, and sometimes simply co-exist with, files which do the same thing. There is usually no attempt made to prioritise or even weight different files from different sources, so it can be tough to find the "correct right file" that **really** adds the capabilities you want, or eliminates those you don't.

Obviously, as big a pain in the ass as it is, always make a "Masters" folder/directory and stick an unaltered copy of the original file in it *before* you start making changes.

Keep in mind that if you add or alter source loads, you may get unexpected results, because of the poor control of what lives where. I've not used plain 3.5 in years---I use Pathfinder, which is a 3.5 derivative---so I'm not sure where you'll find you're file exactly, but they are **always** in the "/data" directory of the branch you're using (3.5, Pathfinder, 4,5, 600, etc...).

I disagree about Homebrew support, as I consider it weak and unreliable. Just be sure you keep a faithful copy of your customised files **outside** of the root tree of PCGen, that way you can re-integrate the changes whenever (a) a new release of your version comes out; or (b) some one decides they don't understand what went on in PCGen Version X and decides to perform a "do-over" which screws up all existing files (aka "new version" release).

Remember that a core rules file may be superceded by a supplementary file, so re-post if you don't find the file you're looking for and I'll take a look (I do a lot of languages, races, magic item stuff myself).


On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 10:46, ferret.griffin+io via Groups.Io <ferret.griffin+io=googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:
This file:  \data\35e\wizards_of_the_coast\rsrd\basics\rsrd_languages.lst 
is possibly what you edited, however any time you update pcgen that will be overwritten, so you'd be better off looking at the tutorials on how to add homebrew - essentially just add a simple my_homebrew.pcg file, that has an entry to a my_homebrew_languages.lst file, that contains the additional language you need.


 

nealsmith1205
 

It seems as though you do not understand PCGen.

Firstly: -

It is volunteer supported free software - So comments like " no version control worth the name, so that as more files are piled on, they sometimes supersede, sometimes complement, and sometimes simply co-exist with, files which do the same thing. " and "he poor control of what lives where." and "I disagree about Homebrew support, as I consider it weak and unreliable." are toxic.



Secondly: -



On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 21:04, Steven High <stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:
As a caveat, file alterations get sticky when you move between versions. Part of the problem lies with PCGen itself; there really is no version control worth the name, so that as more files are piled on, they sometimes supercede, sometimes complement, and sometimes simply co-exist with, files which do the same thing. There is usually no attempt made to prioritise or even weight different files from different sources, so it can be tough to find the "correct right file" that **really** adds the capabilities you want, or eliminates those you don't.

Obviously, as big a pain in the ass as it is, always make a "Masters" folder/directory and stick an unaltered copy of the original file in it *before* you start making changes.

Keep in mind that if you add or alter source loads, you may get unexpected results, because of the poor control of what lives where. I've not used plain 3.5 in years---I use Pathfinder, which is a 3.5 derivative---so I'm not sure where you'll find you're file exactly, but they are **always** in the "/data" directory of the branch you're using (3.5, Pathfinder, 4,5, 600, etc...).

I disagree about Homebrew support, as I consider it weak and unreliable. Just be sure you keep a faithful copy of your customised files **outside** of the root tree of PCGen, that way you can re-integrate the changes whenever (a) a new release of your version comes out; or (b) some one decides they don't understand what went on in PCGen Version X and decides to perform a "do-over" which screws up all existing files (aka "new version" release).

Remember that a core rules file may be superceded by a supplementary file, so re-post if you don't find the file you're looking for and I'll take a look (I do a lot of languages, races, magic item stuff myself).

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 10:46, ferret.griffin+io via Groups.Io <ferret.griffin+io=googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:
This file:  \data\35e\wizards_of_the_coast\rsrd\basics\rsrd_languages.lst 
is possibly what you edited, however any time you update pcgen that will be overwritten, so you'd be better off looking at the tutorials on how to add homebrew - essentially just add a simple my_homebrew.pcg file, that has an entry to a my_homebrew_languages.lst file, that contains the additional language you need.


 



--
Cheers,

Neal Smith

Bearing up!

nealsmith1205
 

I apologise but I sent my post incomplete.

Secondly: - 

Your comments are fundamentally incorrect. The core files should not be edited because doing so risks that they may be superseded by newer installations of PCGen. This is why the homebrew  system exists to allow users to modify the core rules in order to meet their requirements.

Thirdly: -

The community is desperate for volunteers. So instead of dissing the great efforts of a small group of dedicated volunteers how about volunteering yourself?

Thanks from a pleased user of PCGen,

Neal Smith






On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 22:45, nealsmith1205 via Groups.Io <neal.smith=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
It seems as though you do not understand PCGen.

Firstly: -

It is volunteer supported free software - So comments like " no version control worth the name, so that as more files are piled on, they sometimes supersede, sometimes complement, and sometimes simply co-exist with, files which do the same thing. " and "he poor control of what lives where." and "I disagree about Homebrew support, as I consider it weak and unreliable." are toxic.



Secondly: -



On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 21:04, Steven High <stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:
As a caveat, file alterations get sticky when you move between versions. Part of the problem lies with PCGen itself; there really is no version control worth the name, so that as more files are piled on, they sometimes supercede, sometimes complement, and sometimes simply co-exist with, files which do the same thing. There is usually no attempt made to prioritise or even weight different files from different sources, so it can be tough to find the "correct right file" that **really** adds the capabilities you want, or eliminates those you don't.

Obviously, as big a pain in the ass as it is, always make a "Masters" folder/directory and stick an unaltered copy of the original file in it *before* you start making changes.

Keep in mind that if you add or alter source loads, you may get unexpected results, because of the poor control of what lives where. I've not used plain 3.5 in years---I use Pathfinder, which is a 3.5 derivative---so I'm not sure where you'll find you're file exactly, but they are **always** in the "/data" directory of the branch you're using (3.5, Pathfinder, 4,5, 600, etc...).

I disagree about Homebrew support, as I consider it weak and unreliable. Just be sure you keep a faithful copy of your customised files **outside** of the root tree of PCGen, that way you can re-integrate the changes whenever (a) a new release of your version comes out; or (b) some one decides they don't understand what went on in PCGen Version X and decides to perform a "do-over" which screws up all existing files (aka "new version" release).

Remember that a core rules file may be superceded by a supplementary file, so re-post if you don't find the file you're looking for and I'll take a look (I do a lot of languages, races, magic item stuff myself).

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 10:46, ferret.griffin+io via Groups.Io <ferret.griffin+io=googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:
This file:  \data\35e\wizards_of_the_coast\rsrd\basics\rsrd_languages.lst 
is possibly what you edited, however any time you update pcgen that will be overwritten, so you'd be better off looking at the tutorials on how to add homebrew - essentially just add a simple my_homebrew.pcg file, that has an entry to a my_homebrew_languages.lst file, that contains the additional language you need.


 



--
Cheers,

Neal Smith

Bearing up!



--
Cheers,

Neal Smith

Bearing up!

markjmeans
 

Just a thought…. It’s possible that Steven High <stevenfordhigh@...> may have been using the term “version control” incorrectly. He may have been thinking that PCGen doesn’t have any control of its installed data, meaning no self-repair of corrupted files, etc. And that is true. But that’s not what the term “version control” means to any programmer. I have seen this interpretation before when speaking with people whom English is not their native language. So I wouldn’t automatically conclude that such a statement is dissing PCGen.

 

But moreover, nealsmith1205 is absolutely correct in that the place for custom changes to the PCGen sources is in the homebrew folders. And every change you make should be backed up elsewhere outside of the PCGen folder tree.

 

A good backup regimen is important for most all open source programs and users who don’t know or realize that are likely to have problems. Sometimes is just a matter of educating the end users.

 

 

From: main@pcgen.groups.io <main@pcgen.groups.io> On Behalf Of nealsmith1205
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 15:54
To: main@pcgen.groups.io; Neal Smith <neal.smith@...>
Cc: stevenfordhigh@...; ferret.griffin+io@...
Subject: Re: [pcgen] Add language to 3.5

 

I apologise but I sent my post incomplete.

 

Secondly: - 

 

Your comments are fundamentally incorrect. The core files should not be edited because doing so risks that they may be superseded by newer installations of PCGen. This is why the homebrew  system exists to allow users to modify the core rules in order to meet their requirements.

 

Thirdly: -

 

The community is desperate for volunteers. So instead of dissing the great efforts of a small group of dedicated volunteers how about volunteering yourself?

 

Thanks from a pleased user of PCGen,

 

Neal Smith

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 22:45, nealsmith1205 via Groups.Io <neal.smith=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

It seems as though you do not understand PCGen.

 

Firstly: -

 

It is volunteer supported free software - So comments like " no version control worth the name, so that as more files are piled on, they sometimes supersede, sometimes complement, and sometimes simply co-exist with, files which do the same thing. " and "he poor control of what lives where." and "I disagree about Homebrew support, as I consider it weak and unreliable." are toxic.

 

 

 

Secondly: -

 

 

 

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 21:04, Steven High <stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:

As a caveat, file alterations get sticky when you move between versions. Part of the problem lies with PCGen itself; there really is no version control worth the name, so that as more files are piled on, they sometimes supercede, sometimes complement, and sometimes simply co-exist with, files which do the same thing. There is usually no attempt made to prioritise or even weight different files from different sources, so it can be tough to find the "correct right file" that **really** adds the capabilities you want, or eliminates those you don't.

 

Obviously, as big a pain in the ass as it is, always make a "Masters" folder/directory and stick an unaltered copy of the original file in it *before* you start making changes.

 

Keep in mind that if you add or alter source loads, you may get unexpected results, because of the poor control of what lives where. I've not used plain 3.5 in years---I use Pathfinder, which is a 3.5 derivative---so I'm not sure where you'll find you're file exactly, but they are **always** in the "/data" directory of the branch you're using (3.5, Pathfinder, 4,5, 600, etc...).

 

I disagree about Homebrew support, as I consider it weak and unreliable. Just be sure you keep a faithful copy of your customised files **outside** of the root tree of PCGen, that way you can re-integrate the changes whenever (a) a new release of your version comes out; or (b) some one decides they don't understand what went on in PCGen Version X and decides to perform a "do-over" which screws up all existing files (aka "new version" release).

 

Remember that a core rules file may be superceded by a supplementary file, so re-post if you don't find the file you're looking for and I'll take a look (I do a lot of languages, races, magic item stuff myself).

 

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 10:46, ferret.griffin+io via Groups.Io <ferret.griffin+io=googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:

This file:  \data\35e\wizards_of_the_coast\rsrd\basics\rsrd_languages.lst 
is possibly what you edited, however any time you update pcgen that will be overwritten, so you'd be better off looking at the tutorials on how to add homebrew - essentially just add a simple my_homebrew.pcg file, that has an entry to a my_homebrew_languages.lst file, that contains the additional language you need.

 


 

--

Cheers,

Neal Smith

Bearing up!


 

--

Cheers,

Neal Smith

Bearing up!

robert@...
 

> This is why the homebrew  system exists to allow users to modify the core rules in order to meet their requirements.
Could someone point to the documentation of the homebrew system and syntext for the my_homebrew.pcg file?

Andrew Maitland
 

Hi,

About to go to bed but let me address a few things:

1) PCGen uses git for version control. I would know because I've been a part of the migration effort from the previous version control "SVN" to Git. Also, we have two primary branches - Master which houses all the latest features (6.09.x) and then the production branch named for the production version (6.08).

2) Homebrew support is readily available. First I created a skeleton set for customization, next I pushed the code team to support an additional data folder preference location (Previous to this, you had data and vendordata), today you also have homebrewdata.

3) Most of our volunteers will tell folks to move homebrew content to an alternative location to avoid being overwritten. Unless you're creating new game systems or customizing your own character sheet exports, this feature is quite sufficient. However, symlinks is a great mechanism to allow for expansion for additional content requirements such as the aforementioned folders.

4) PCGen is a 20 year old open source project that has been altered over thousands of man hours, by hundreds of volunteers with various levels of experience and knowledge. If you don't like something, want something fixed, or want to make a change, then join the team and enact it. That's how most of us joined up. We wanted to see a change and made it happen. This is truly a community project.

Now, to the answer of documentation and support - F1 opens the program documentation. There is a List Tag index that explains all the lst and pcc file tags, there is an Outputsheet tag index in case you want to branch out into creating some character sheets. I also created several youtube videos to explain basics of pcgen, how to code things up, and made some examples.

My availability is limited, but I have a group of lurking volunteers over on discord that answer questions in real time (Might be delayed a few hours, cause time zones) but for the most part we average a 5-15 minutes turn around time during the Main North American time zones. (2am to 5am we don't have many up and about.)

For the Language add, you open the LANGUAGE file. Though why would "read lips" be a language you learn? Someone speaking another language would make that difficult. I recall a 3rd edition skill called read lips, and there is a reference to skills. However, at the end of the day, you do whatever you want. Want it as another language, then add it to the language file, want it as a skill, then add it as a skill, want it as a class feature, then make it a class feature. Adding a skill or language is a 5 minute task.

LANGUAGE FILE:

Read Lips <tab> TYPE:Observation

SKILL FILE:

Read Lips <tab> TYPE:Language.NormalSkill

ABILITY FILE:

Read Lips <tab> TYPE:SpecialQuality <tab> CATEGORY:Special Ability <tab> DESC:You can read the lips and decipher most of a conversation you can observe.

Help us to help you. Tell us what the end state/goal is, and we can help you get there. (Within reason).

Hope that covered the questions that I saw posted.

Cheers,

Andrew

PCGen Board of Directors - Content Silverback

On 11/13/2019 8:02 PM, robert@... wrote:
> This is why the homebrew  system exists to allow users to modify the core rules in order to meet their requirements.
Could someone point to the documentation of the homebrew system and syntext for the my_homebrew.pcg file?

Steven High
 

Criticism is not disrespectful. Dissent is not disloyalty.

That the **present** source files for the core java engine are protected while being edited for release---Andrew Maitland's "git"---does **not** alter the fact that there is and was very poor control of the data sets which are essential to the **useful** functioning of the program. There are whole swaths of file data that are duplicated, or rendered null, or in conflict with one another, &c, but all of which comprise a continuing source of error and confusion. That is poor version control.

Pointing that out may not make you happy, but it does not make the criticism invalid.

For the record, the "homebrew" folder gets written over, too. It is no different than any other folder (nee directory) in the distribution.

---

Have you told the OP what happens to the other languages in their selected datasets? Or how to make "Read Lips" show up as a selectable Bonus language? Or how the languages subsystem works?

---

The fact is that using PCGen for more than vanilla character generation is non-trivial, except in the most trivial of circumstances. But the overwhelming usage of the program is ordinary character generation and maintenance, with GM Monster generation next. So vanilla is exactly where the emphasis **should** be.

The fact that PCGen does it's core job very well does not mitigate the difficulty in using it in ways it asserts it is just as useful for: one of the reasons the data sets are a hot mess, and the loader and output interfaces have so many issues, is that flexibility comes at a cost, and requires much more stringent **version control** in the strictest sense; I use sccs when making my edits to the splat.lst files, but that does not protect me from unseen and undiscovered errors buried in other splat2.lst files that have been overlooked for uncounted years. I have to build those matrices by hand, through trial and error.

---

Andrew Maitland noted, as I did, that the homebrew folder get overwritten---which is clearly stated inside the folder and in the textual help files.

SFH

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 at 02:16, Andrew Maitland via Groups.Io <drew0500=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi,

About to go to bed but let me address a few things:

1) PCGen uses git for version control. I would know because I've been a part of the migration effort from the previous version control "SVN" to Git. Also, we have two primary branches - Master which houses all the latest features (6.09.x) and then the production branch named for the production version (6.08).

2) Homebrew support is readily available. First I created a skeleton set for customization, next I pushed the code team to support an additional data folder preference location (Previous to this, you had data and vendordata), today you also have homebrewdata.

3) Most of our volunteers will tell folks to move homebrew content to an alternative location to avoid being overwritten. Unless you're creating new game systems or customizing your own character sheet exports, this feature is quite sufficient. However, symlinks is a great mechanism to allow for expansion for additional content requirements such as the aforementioned folders.

4) PCGen is a 20 year old open source project that has been altered over thousands of man hours, by hundreds of volunteers with various levels of experience and knowledge. If you don't like something, want something fixed, or want to make a change, then join the team and enact it. That's how most of us joined up. We wanted to see a change and made it happen. This is truly a community project.

Now, to the answer of documentation and support - F1 opens the program documentation. There is a List Tag index that explains all the lst and pcc file tags, there is an Outputsheet tag index in case you want to branch out into creating some character sheets. I also created several youtube videos to explain basics of pcgen, how to code things up, and made some examples.

My availability is limited, but I have a group of lurking volunteers over on discord that answer questions in real time (Might be delayed a few hours, cause time zones) but for the most part we average a 5-15 minutes turn around time during the Main North American time zones. (2am to 5am we don't have many up and about.)

For the Language add, you open the LANGUAGE file. Though why would "read lips" be a language you learn? Someone speaking another language would make that difficult. I recall a 3rd edition skill called read lips, and there is a reference to skills. However, at the end of the day, you do whatever you want. Want it as another language, then add it to the language file, want it as a skill, then add it as a skill, want it as a class feature, then make it a class feature. Adding a skill or language is a 5 minute task.

LANGUAGE FILE:

Read Lips <tab> TYPE:Observation

SKILL FILE:

Read Lips <tab> TYPE:Language.NormalSkill

ABILITY FILE:

Read Lips <tab> TYPE:SpecialQuality <tab> CATEGORY:Special Ability <tab> DESC:You can read the lips and decipher most of a conversation you can observe.

Help us to help you. Tell us what the end state/goal is, and we can help you get there. (Within reason).

Hope that covered the questions that I saw posted.

Cheers,

Andrew

PCGen Board of Directors - Content Silverback

On 11/13/2019 8:02 PM, robert@... wrote:
> This is why the homebrew  system exists to allow users to modify the core rules in order to meet their requirements.
Could someone point to the documentation of the homebrew system and syntext for the my_homebrew.pcg file?

Barak
 

 I disagree with your conclusion.  What those "issues" are from is the game system itself, not a lack of version control.

  Haven't you noticed that the core system is "The Rules" and EVERY supplement is the breaking/changing of said rules?  There are additions as well, but the vast majority of supplemental books make changes to the existing rules (the changes running the gamut from expansion to direct contradiction) or even negate them entirely.  The programmers cannot help that a user is expecting the rule from source A but has just loaded every supplement under the sun and caused the rule from source A to be over-ruled (pardon the pun) by the changed one from Source H.  

  As I recall at one time there was a discussion of warning people of such things when they loaded data, but the conclusion was there were so many, even just loading a few sources that it just wouldn't be useful (I believe that "running out of memory" was another concern if someone loaded all the files and we tried to report every change to a core rule that would make).  

  There are duplicates in the data (for the most part) because there are duplicates in the sources.  All of the issues you are pointing out are in the sourcebooks as well, it's just not as noticeable because a human can wave aside anything that might be considered a conflict and move on.  A computer program not so much.  

Barak


On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 2:27 PM Steven High <stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:
 There are whole swaths of file data that are duplicated, or rendered null, or in conflict with one another, &c, but all of which comprise a continuing source of error and confusion. That is poor version control.

Andrew Maitland
 

Several of the issues I've had "bug" reports over was just this exact thing. Someone loads every single Pathfinder source available, and then complain when the "rules" are wrong.

Barak is absolutely correct. PCGen is not responsible for the hundreds of published supplements that come out, change existing rules, use the same names multiple times but intend different objects from specific sources without naming them. There is a reason why KITS have a "FREE" tag, because even the publishers made mistakes in creating monsters that we had to be able to override the rules to replicate their examples. Or the fact that in order to support the more "popular" versions, I had to intentionally re-key so those duplicates would show up (Cause the community wanted to have a choice).

Anyways, I am not sure how PCGen has poor version control, or what exactly you intend to propose to fix it, since as far as I can see the files are coded to what the books say. However, the only way things improve is not criticism or dissent, but proposing viable solutions. Criticism and Dissent might not be "bad" but they are "negative" and volunteers doing a project with no compensation except the occasional "thanks" don't feel inspired to work on something when all they have is negative feedback.

As I mentioned earlier, most of us joined to add something to PCGen or to fix a problem. If you cannot code in Java, or have the time to tackle some LST or edit html, then at least offer a solution (x is y, but should be a).


As a side note, someone wanted to know how to add the languages to a race:

AUTO:LANG|Common|Language2|Language3

or

BONUS:LANG|AvailableLang1,AvailableLang2,AvailableLang3

And you place that on the race. You can also drop that onto a template and grant the template to the race. Handy for the races that have slightly different languages based upon a campaign setting.

Cheers,

Andrew


On 11/17/2019 6:50 AM, Barak wrote:
??I disagree with your conclusion.?? What those "issues" are from is the game system itself, not a lack of version control.

?? Haven't you noticed that the core system is "The Rules" and EVERY supplement is the breaking/changing of said rules??? There are additions as well, but the vast majority of supplemental books make changes to the existing rules (the changes running the gamut from expansion to direct contradiction) or even negate them entirely.?? The programmers cannot help that a user is expecting the rule from source A but has just loaded every supplement under the sun and caused the rule from source A to be over-ruled (pardon the pun) by the changed one from Source H.????

?? As I recall at one time there was a discussion of warning people of such things when they loaded data, but the conclusion was there were so many, even just loading a few sources that it just wouldn't be useful (I believe that "running out of memory" was another concern if someone loaded all the files and we tried to report every change to a core rule that would make).????

?? There are duplicates in the data (for the most part) because there are duplicates in the sources.?? All of the issues you are pointing out are in the sourcebooks as well, it's just not as noticeable because a human can wave aside anything that might be considered a conflict and move on.?? A computer program not so much.????

Barak


On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 2:27 PM Steven High <stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:
??There are whole swaths of file data that are duplicated, or rendered null, or in conflict with one another, &c, but all of which comprise a continuing source of error and confusion. That is poor version control.

Ramon Menendez
 

thank you for the advice... I fixed the one problem and have moved to one that appears to be your specialty.. races.  The races I am trying to add are already in the data file (the sub races for the elves and dwarves, etc..).  I am having some success with them but as I fix one aspect.. I loose another.  Age is one that comes and goes and so it movement..... I havent given up hope but if you can shed light.. I'll take all the help i can get

On November 13, 2019 at 12:53 PM Steven High <stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:

As a caveat, file alterations get sticky when you move between versions. Part of the problem lies with PCGen itself; there really is no version control worth the name, so that as more files are piled on, they sometimes supercede, sometimes complement, and sometimes simply co-exist with, files which do the same thing. There is usually no attempt made to prioritise or even weight different files from different sources, so it can be tough to find the "correct right file" that **really** adds the capabilities you want, or eliminates those you don't.

Obviously, as big a pain in the ass as it is, always make a "Masters" folder/directory and stick an unaltered copy of the original file in it *before* you start making changes.

Keep in mind that if you add or alter source loads, you may get unexpected results, because of the poor control of what lives where. I've not used plain 3.5 in years---I use Pathfinder, which is a 3.5 derivative---so I'm not sure where you'll find you're file exactly, but they are **always** in the "/data" directory of the branch you're using (3.5, Pathfinder, 4,5, 600, etc...).

I disagree about Homebrew support, as I consider it weak and unreliable. Just be sure you keep a faithful copy of your customised files **outside** of the root tree of PCGen, that way you can re-integrate the changes whenever (a) a new release of your version comes out; or (b) some one decides they don't understand what went on in PCGen Version X and decides to perform a "do-over" which screws up all existing files (aka "new version" release).

Remember that a core rules file may be superceded by a supplementary file, so re-post if you don't find the file you're looking for and I'll take a look (I do a lot of languages, races, magic item stuff myself).

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 10:46, ferret.griffin+io via Groups.Io <ferret.griffin+io= googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:
This file:  \data\35e\wizards_of_the_coast\rsrd\basics\rsrd_languages.lst 
is possibly what you edited, however any time you update pcgen that will be overwritten, so you'd be better off looking at the tutorials on how to add homebrew - essentially just add a simple my_homebrew.pcg file, that has an entry to a my_homebrew_languages.lst file, that contains the additional language you need.


 

 

 


 

Ramon Menendez
 

Thank you.. first thing i did before monkeying with anything is made back-ups.... but the heads up on using the homebrew.. that I didnt think of.. so that might make this easier..... maybe :)

On November 13, 2019 at 5:42 PM markjmeans <markjmeans@...> wrote:

Just a thought…. It’s possible that Steven High <stevenfordhigh@...> may have been using the term “version control” incorrectly. He may have been thinking that PCGen doesn’t have any control of its installed data, meaning no self-repair of corrupted files, etc. And that is true. But that’s not what the term “version control” means to any programmer. I have seen this interpretation before when speaking with people whom English is not their native language. So I wouldn’t automatically conclude that such a statement is dissing PCGen.

 

But moreover, nealsmith1205 is absolutely correct in that the place for custom changes to the PCGen sources is in the homebrew folders. And every change you make should be backed up elsewhere outside of the PCGen folder tree.

 

A good backup regimen is important for most all open source programs and users who don’t know or realize that are likely to have problems. Sometimes is just a matter of educating the end users.

 

 

From: main@pcgen.groups.io <main@pcgen.groups.io> On Behalf Of nealsmith1205
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 15:54
To: main@pcgen.groups.io; Neal Smith <neal.smith@...>
Cc: stevenfordhigh@...; ferret.griffin+io@...
Subject: Re: [pcgen] Add language to 3.5

 

I apologise but I sent my post incomplete.

 

Secondly: - 

 

Your comments are fundamentally incorrect. The core files should not be edited because doing so risks that they may be superseded by newer installations of PCGen. This is why the homebrew  system exists to allow users to modify the core rules in order to meet their requirements.

 

Thirdly: -

 

The community is desperate for volunteers. So instead of dissing the great efforts of a small group of dedicated volunteers how about volunteering yourself?

 

Thanks from a pleased user of PCGen,

 

Neal Smith

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 22:45, nealsmith1205 via Groups.Io <neal.smith=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

It seems as though you do not understand PCGen.

 

Firstly: -

 

It is volunteer supported free software - So comments like " no version control worth the name, so that as more files are piled on, they sometimes supersede, sometimes complement, and sometimes simply co-exist with, files which do the same thing. " and "he poor control of what lives where." and "I disagree about Homebrew support, as I consider it weak and unreliable." are toxic.

 

 

 

Secondly: -

 

 

 

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 21:04, Steven High <stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:

As a caveat, file alterations get sticky when you move between versions. Part of the problem lies with PCGen itself; there really is no version control worth the name, so that as more files are piled on, they sometimes supercede, sometimes complement, and sometimes simply co-exist with, files which do the same thing. There is usually no attempt made to prioritise or even weight different files from different sources, so it can be tough to find the "correct right file" that **really** adds the capabilities you want, or eliminates those you don't.

 

Obviously, as big a pain in the ass as it is, always make a "Masters" folder/directory and stick an unaltered copy of the original file in it *before* you start making changes.

 

Keep in mind that if you add or alter source loads, you may get unexpected results, because of the poor control of what lives where. I've not used plain 3.5 in years---I use Pathfinder, which is a 3.5 derivative---so I'm not sure where you'll find you're file exactly, but they are **always** in the "/data" directory of the branch you're using (3.5, Pathfinder, 4,5, 600, etc...).

 

I disagree about Homebrew support, as I consider it weak and unreliable. Just be sure you keep a faithful copy of your customised files **outside** of the root tree of PCGen, that way you can re-integrate the changes whenever (a) a new release of your version comes out; or (b) some one decides they don't understand what went on in PCGen Version X and decides to perform a "do-over" which screws up all existing files (aka "new version" release).

 

Remember that a core rules file may be superceded by a supplementary file, so re-post if you don't find the file you're looking for and I'll take a look (I do a lot of languages, races, magic item stuff myself).

 

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 10:46, ferret.griffin+io via Groups.Io <ferret.griffin+io=googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:

This file:  \data\35e\wizards_of_the_coast\rsrd\basics\rsrd_languages.lst 
is possibly what you edited, however any time you update pcgen that will be overwritten, so you'd be better off looking at the tutorials on how to add homebrew - essentially just add a simple my_homebrew.pcg file, that has an entry to a my_homebrew_languages.lst file, that contains the additional language you need.

 


 

--

Cheers,

Neal Smith

Bearing up!


 

--

Cheers,

Neal Smith

Bearing up!

 



 

Ramon Menendez
 

Thank you Andrew... and yes I was trying to put it in like the 3.0 version had.... its a probably best added as a skill and not a language but I am not that versed in the program.. yet.   I was not aware of the videos and stuff so will be looking those up too.  Again... thank you and your team for helping .... my next task (after I watch the videos this time) will be to integrate the subraces .. all the data appears to be there already... just need to figure out how to make it work smoothly :)

On November 14, 2019 at 12:15 AM "Andrew Maitland via Groups.Io" <drew0500@...> wrote:

Hi,

About to go to bed but let me address a few things:

1) PCGen uses git for version control. I would know because I've been a part of the migration effort from the previous version control "SVN" to Git. Also, we have two primary branches - Master which houses all the latest features (6.09.x) and then the production branch named for the production version (6.08).

2) Homebrew support is readily available. First I created a skeleton set for customization, next I pushed the code team to support an additional data folder preference location (Previous to this, you had data and vendordata), today you also have homebrewdata.

3) Most of our volunteers will tell folks to move homebrew content to an alternative location to avoid being overwritten. Unless you're creating new game systems or customizing your own character sheet exports, this feature is quite sufficient. However, symlinks is a great mechanism to allow for expansion for additional content requirements such as the aforementioned folders.

4) PCGen is a 20 year old open source project that has been altered over thousands of man hours, by hundreds of volunteers with various levels of experience and knowledge. If you don't like something, want something fixed, or want to make a change, then join the team and enact it. That's how most of us joined up. We wanted to see a change and made it happen. This is truly a community project.

Now, to the answer of documentation and support - F1 opens the program documentation. There is a List Tag index that explains all the lst and pcc file tags, there is an Outputsheet tag index in case you want to branch out into creating some character sheets. I also created several youtube videos to explain basics of pcgen, how to code things up, and made some examples.

My availability is limited, but I have a group of lurking volunteers over on discord that answer questions in real time (Might be delayed a few hours, cause time zones) but for the most part we average a 5-15 minutes turn around time during the Main North American time zones. (2am to 5am we don't have many up and about.)

For the Language add, you open the LANGUAGE file. Though why would "read lips" be a language you learn? Someone speaking another language would make that difficult. I recall a 3rd edition skill called read lips, and there is a reference to skills. However, at the end of the day, you do whatever you want. Want it as another language, then add it to the language file, want it as a skill, then add it as a skill, want it as a class feature, then make it a class feature. Adding a skill or language is a 5 minute task.

LANGUAGE FILE:

Read Lips <tab> TYPE:Observation

SKILL FILE:

Read Lips <tab> TYPE:Language.NormalSkill

ABILITY FILE:

Read Lips <tab> TYPE:SpecialQuality <tab> CATEGORY:Special Ability <tab> DESC:You can read the lips and decipher most of a conversation you can observe.

Help us to help you. Tell us what the end state/goal is, and we can help you get there. (Within reason).

Hope that covered the questions that I saw posted.

Cheers,

Andrew

PCGen Board of Directors - Content Silverback

On 11/13/2019 8:02 PM, robert@... wrote:
> This is why the homebrew  system exists to allow users to modify the core rules in order to meet their requirements.
Could someone point to the documentation of the homebrew system and syntext for the my_homebrew.pcg file?

 

Ramon Menendez
 

TY... that might be the better way to go..... but I need tyo learn more on how to get the races working first... the subraces are already ther it seems.. just cant get them to work

On November 17, 2019 at 3:59 PM "Andrew Maitland via Groups.Io" <drew0500@...> wrote:

Several of the issues I've had "bug" reports over was just this exact thing. Someone loads every single Pathfinder source available, and then complain when the "rules" are wrong.

Barak is absolutely correct. PCGen is not responsible for the hundreds of published supplements that come out, change existing rules, use the same names multiple times but intend different objects from specific sources without naming them. There is a reason why KITS have a "FREE" tag, because even the publishers made mistakes in creating monsters that we had to be able to override the rules to replicate their examples. Or the fact that in order to support the more "popular" versions, I had to intentionally re-key so those duplicates would show up (Cause the community wanted to have a choice).

Anyways, I am not sure how PCGen has poor version control, or what exactly you intend to propose to fix it, since as far as I can see the files are coded to what the books say. However, the only way things improve is not criticism or dissent, but proposing viable solutions. Criticism and Dissent might not be "bad" but they are "negative" and volunteers doing a project with no compensation except the occasional "thanks" don't feel inspired to work on something when all they have is negative feedback.

As I mentioned earlier, most of us joined to add something to PCGen or to fix a problem. If you cannot code in Java, or have the time to tackle some LST or edit html, then at least offer a solution (x is y, but should be a).


As a side note, someone wanted to know how to add the languages to a race:

AUTO:LANG|Common|Language2|Language3

or

BONUS:LANG|AvailableLang1,AvailableLang2,AvailableLang3

And you place that on the race. You can also drop that onto a template and grant the template to the race. Handy for the races that have slightly different languages based upon a campaign setting.

Cheers,

Andrew


On 11/17/2019 6:50 AM, Barak wrote:
??I disagree with your conclusion.?? What those "issues" are from is the game system itself, not a lack of version control.

?? Haven't you noticed that the core system is "The Rules" and EVERY supplement is the breaking/changing of said rules??? There are additions as well, but the vast majority of supplemental books make changes to the existing rules (the changes running the gamut from expansion to direct contradiction) or even negate them entirely.?? The programmers cannot help that a user is expecting the rule from source A but has just loaded every supplement under the sun and caused the rule from source A to be over-ruled (pardon the pun) by the changed one from Source H.????

?? As I recall at one time there was a discussion of warning people of such things when they loaded data, but the conclusion was there were so many, even just loading a few sources that it just wouldn't be useful (I believe that "running out of memory" was another concern if someone loaded all the files and we tried to report every change to a core rule that would make).????

?? There are duplicates in the data (for the most part) because there are duplicates in the sources.?? All of the issues you are pointing out are in the sourcebooks as well, it's just not as noticeable because a human can wave aside anything that might be considered a conflict and move on.?? A computer program not so much.????

Barak


On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 2:27 PM Steven High < stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:
??There are whole swaths of file data that are duplicated, or rendered null, or in conflict with one another, &c, but all of which comprise a continuing source of error and confusion. That is poor version control.

 

Steven High
 

Actually, I feel PCGen has done a very good job of dealing with multiple sources and their conflicts as far as identifying which are interdependent and which are exclusive; if you spend any time manipulating sources in the Advanced Sources list you very quickly see just how much effort went into that.

To the extent that file duplication is inherent in the sources, and the very real caution with which AM and his fellow designers should approach the alteration of source material provided by the Game Designer itself---say Pathfinder---your point is valid, and clearly the PCGen team made a real effort to be consistent with the Game Designer's vision while permitting the GM to be as crazy as we like to be.

Where your agrument breaks down---and I cannot speak at all to AM's comment about a quantitative view of "issues", as he is the expert there, clearly---is within the many data files themselves, within the sources loaded by the game's user interface.

If you've spent any times inside them---and I have spent a lot of time there, just so you are fully warned before you go off again---you find that very little consistency exists across the numerous files and filesets. To speak to AM's point about the long history of PCGen and its nature as an open-source project, it is clear that the more recent efforts **have** made attempts to exert standards and practices, and to ensure as much commonality as possible. One of the issues seems to be that successive file "Tsars" want to go in different directions, so that "the wheel" keeps getting reinvented; another is the scale of the files themselves, which makes it close to impossible to make wholesale changes in a single iteration of the PCGen engine--this second issue results in several "started-and-stopped" efforts at clean-up.

If you had spent any real time in the files, you'd have known those thing, and have known about the efforts to fix them, and recognised that it was a real problem. As you are clearly one of the "privledged few"---I see your name on the output files when I'm repairing them---one might have expected you to answer my comment with the same calm that AM did, but add some salient facts; like **why** there are so many starts and stops, and **why** the project seems unable to settle upon a standard for data files; after all, the choices of Java brought with it the absolute requirement for complexly-formatted data files.

But none of that answers some of the low-level "whys". For example, why is it that any given file might require two or three entries for the same item, in different lists? Why is it that a single data point---say, for example, a Weapon Bonus---has to be repeated two or three times in a single data entry? All of those redundancies create opportunities for error and anomaly, and make altering the data files, even for experienced editors, an onerous and error-prone task.

Good version control doesn't just protect a file from being edited by more than one person at a time, nor track progressive edits. It controls the process by which a project advances the technology employed and the technology being attempted---so that if a new technology should prove to trouble-probe, or unusuable, it can be "backed out" without the whole project collapsing. The data files supporting PCGen---and without which the programme is useless---are not well managed, however you want to split hairs over how you define the work of version control, and whatever the reasons.

Certainly the deluge of supplements and "campaigns" and etc... coming out of Gaming Companies is a huge burden, and quite probably beyond the resources of an all-volunteer effort; much less going back and enforcing one of the several "formats" envisioned for the data sets and the way they are loaded into the java engine. I do see that. Better than you, clearly. But that there is an explanation does not mean there is no problem.


On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 09:35, Ramon Menendez <shadowhmb@...> wrote:
TY... that might be the better way to go..... but I need tyo learn more on how to get the races working first... the subraces are already ther it seems.. just cant get them to work
On November 17, 2019 at 3:59 PM "Andrew Maitland via Groups.Io" <drew0500=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Several of the issues I've had "bug" reports over was just this exact thing. Someone loads every single Pathfinder source available, and then complain when the "rules" are wrong.

Barak is absolutely correct. PCGen is not responsible for the hundreds of published supplements that come out, change existing rules, use the same names multiple times but intend different objects from specific sources without naming them. There is a reason why KITS have a "FREE" tag, because even the publishers made mistakes in creating monsters that we had to be able to override the rules to replicate their examples. Or the fact that in order to support the more "popular" versions, I had to intentionally re-key so those duplicates would show up (Cause the community wanted to have a choice).

Anyways, I am not sure how PCGen has poor version control, or what exactly you intend to propose to fix it, since as far as I can see the files are coded to what the books say. However, the only way things improve is not criticism or dissent, but proposing viable solutions. Criticism and Dissent might not be "bad" but they are "negative" and volunteers doing a project with no compensation except the occasional "thanks" don't feel inspired to work on something when all they have is negative feedback.

As I mentioned earlier, most of us joined to add something to PCGen or to fix a problem. If you cannot code in Java, or have the time to tackle some LST or edit html, then at least offer a solution (x is y, but should be a).


As a side note, someone wanted to know how to add the languages to a race:

AUTO:LANG|Common|Language2|Language3

or

BONUS:LANG|AvailableLang1,AvailableLang2,AvailableLang3

And you place that on the race. You can also drop that onto a template and grant the template to the race. Handy for the races that have slightly different languages based upon a campaign setting.

Cheers,

Andrew


On 11/17/2019 6:50 AM, Barak wrote:
??I disagree with your conclusion.?? What those "issues" are from is the game system itself, not a lack of version control.

?? Haven't you noticed that the core system is "The Rules" and EVERY supplement is the breaking/changing of said rules??? There are additions as well, but the vast majority of supplemental books make changes to the existing rules (the changes running the gamut from expansion to direct contradiction) or even negate them entirely.?? The programmers cannot help that a user is expecting the rule from source A but has just loaded every supplement under the sun and caused the rule from source A to be over-ruled (pardon the pun) by the changed one from Source H.????

?? As I recall at one time there was a discussion of warning people of such things when they loaded data, but the conclusion was there were so many, even just loading a few sources that it just wouldn't be useful (I believe that "running out of memory" was another concern if someone loaded all the files and we tried to report every change to a core rule that would make).????

?? There are duplicates in the data (for the most part) because there are duplicates in the sources.?? All of the issues you are pointing out are in the sourcebooks as well, it's just not as noticeable because a human can wave aside anything that might be considered a conflict and move on.?? A computer program not so much.????

Barak


On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 2:27 PM Steven High < stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:
??There are whole swaths of file data that are duplicated, or rendered null, or in conflict with one another, &c, but all of which comprise a continuing source of error and confusion. That is poor version control.

 

Steven High
 

Actually, I have edited plenty of PCGen splt.lst files---that is the origin of my criticism. And I have edited plenty of html, too. I've spent plenty of hours working up new output sheets after making to revisions to the included output sheets. But no, I do not code java. Nor do I want to.

Furthermore, I **have** offered to work on ("volunteer for") the data files; I am repeatedly told that is an area the project "does not need help" on. A point about which I clearly disagree. I'm still ready to help out with them.

As far as a solution, I've written it numerous times---the data files need to be rationalised. If the parser is too broken to allow for that, then the parser needs to be rewritten. The data files are needlessly complicated and duplicative, QUITE APART FROM THE EXISTENCE OF SUPPLEMENTARY SOURCES. Anyone who spends any time actually working with the data sets knows this.



On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 22:49, Steven High via Groups.Io <stevenfordhigh=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Actually, I feel PCGen has done a very good job of dealing with multiple sources and their conflicts as far as identifying which are interdependent and which are exclusive; if you spend any time manipulating sources in the Advanced Sources list you very quickly see just how much effort went into that.

To the extent that file duplication is inherent in the sources, and the very real caution with which AM and his fellow designers should approach the alteration of source material provided by the Game Designer itself---say Pathfinder---your point is valid, and clearly the PCGen team made a real effort to be consistent with the Game Designer's vision while permitting the GM to be as crazy as we like to be.

Where your agrument breaks down---and I cannot speak at all to AM's comment about a quantitative view of "issues", as he is the expert there, clearly---is within the many data files themselves, within the sources loaded by the game's user interface.

If you've spent any times inside them---and I have spent a lot of time there, just so you are fully warned before you go off again---you find that very little consistency exists across the numerous files and filesets. To speak to AM's point about the long history of PCGen and its nature as an open-source project, it is clear that the more recent efforts **have** made attempts to exert standards and practices, and to ensure as much commonality as possible. One of the issues seems to be that successive file "Tsars" want to go in different directions, so that "the wheel" keeps getting reinvented; another is the scale of the files themselves, which makes it close to impossible to make wholesale changes in a single iteration of the PCGen engine--this second issue results in several "started-and-stopped" efforts at clean-up.

If you had spent any real time in the files, you'd have known those thing, and have known about the efforts to fix them, and recognised that it was a real problem. As you are clearly one of the "privledged few"---I see your name on the output files when I'm repairing them---one might have expected you to answer my comment with the same calm that AM did, but add some salient facts; like **why** there are so many starts and stops, and **why** the project seems unable to settle upon a standard for data files; after all, the choices of Java brought with it the absolute requirement for complexly-formatted data files.

But none of that answers some of the low-level "whys". For example, why is it that any given file might require two or three entries for the same item, in different lists? Why is it that a single data point---say, for example, a Weapon Bonus---has to be repeated two or three times in a single data entry? All of those redundancies create opportunities for error and anomaly, and make altering the data files, even for experienced editors, an onerous and error-prone task.

Good version control doesn't just protect a file from being edited by more than one person at a time, nor track progressive edits. It controls the process by which a project advances the technology employed and the technology being attempted---so that if a new technology should prove to trouble-probe, or unusuable, it can be "backed out" without the whole project collapsing. The data files supporting PCGen---and without which the programme is useless---are not well managed, however you want to split hairs over how you define the work of version control, and whatever the reasons.

Certainly the deluge of supplements and "campaigns" and etc... coming out of Gaming Companies is a huge burden, and quite probably beyond the resources of an all-volunteer effort; much less going back and enforcing one of the several "formats" envisioned for the data sets and the way they are loaded into the java engine. I do see that. Better than you, clearly. But that there is an explanation does not mean there is no problem.

On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 09:35, Ramon Menendez <shadowhmb@...> wrote:
TY... that might be the better way to go..... but I need tyo learn more on how to get the races working first... the subraces are already ther it seems.. just cant get them to work
On November 17, 2019 at 3:59 PM "Andrew Maitland via Groups.Io" <drew0500=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Several of the issues I've had "bug" reports over was just this exact thing. Someone loads every single Pathfinder source available, and then complain when the "rules" are wrong.

Barak is absolutely correct. PCGen is not responsible for the hundreds of published supplements that come out, change existing rules, use the same names multiple times but intend different objects from specific sources without naming them. There is a reason why KITS have a "FREE" tag, because even the publishers made mistakes in creating monsters that we had to be able to override the rules to replicate their examples. Or the fact that in order to support the more "popular" versions, I had to intentionally re-key so those duplicates would show up (Cause the community wanted to have a choice).

Anyways, I am not sure how PCGen has poor version control, or what exactly you intend to propose to fix it, since as far as I can see the files are coded to what the books say. However, the only way things improve is not criticism or dissent, but proposing viable solutions. Criticism and Dissent might not be "bad" but they are "negative" and volunteers doing a project with no compensation except the occasional "thanks" don't feel inspired to work on something when all they have is negative feedback.

As I mentioned earlier, most of us joined to add something to PCGen or to fix a problem. If you cannot code in Java, or have the time to tackle some LST or edit html, then at least offer a solution (x is y, but should be a).


As a side note, someone wanted to know how to add the languages to a race:

AUTO:LANG|Common|Language2|Language3

or

BONUS:LANG|AvailableLang1,AvailableLang2,AvailableLang3

And you place that on the race. You can also drop that onto a template and grant the template to the race. Handy for the races that have slightly different languages based upon a campaign setting.

Cheers,

Andrew


On 11/17/2019 6:50 AM, Barak wrote:
??I disagree with your conclusion.?? What those "issues" are from is the game system itself, not a lack of version control.

?? Haven't you noticed that the core system is "The Rules" and EVERY supplement is the breaking/changing of said rules??? There are additions as well, but the vast majority of supplemental books make changes to the existing rules (the changes running the gamut from expansion to direct contradiction) or even negate them entirely.?? The programmers cannot help that a user is expecting the rule from source A but has just loaded every supplement under the sun and caused the rule from source A to be over-ruled (pardon the pun) by the changed one from Source H.????

?? As I recall at one time there was a discussion of warning people of such things when they loaded data, but the conclusion was there were so many, even just loading a few sources that it just wouldn't be useful (I believe that "running out of memory" was another concern if someone loaded all the files and we tried to report every change to a core rule that would make).????

?? There are duplicates in the data (for the most part) because there are duplicates in the sources.?? All of the issues you are pointing out are in the sourcebooks as well, it's just not as noticeable because a human can wave aside anything that might be considered a conflict and move on.?? A computer program not so much.????

Barak


On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 2:27 PM Steven High < stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:
??There are whole swaths of file data that are duplicated, or rendered null, or in conflict with one another, &c, but all of which comprise a continuing source of error and confusion. That is poor version control.

 

Robert Singers
 

And to add to Steven's comments.  I offered to help with documentation, and but gave up trying to be involved as there was never anyone on the Discord server to talk to about it.

I'd also be seeing  the meta-model for the data files, if one exists.

--
Robert Singers
 

Andrew Maitland
 

Hi Steven,

Who has declined your offer to help?

I can assure you I do not turn away any seeking to volunteer.

I'm curious about the rationalised comment. The data sets are set up to be like the books, but the annoyance is the information in them often requires information in other earlier source books to work correctly.


On 11/27/2019 12:23 PM, Steven High wrote:
Actually, I have edited plenty of PCGen splt.lst files---that is the origin of my criticism. And I have edited plenty of html, too. I've spent plenty of hours working up new output sheets after making to revisions to the included output sheets. But no, I do not code java. Nor do I want to.

Furthermore, I **have** offered to work on ("volunteer for") the data files; I am repeatedly told that is an area the project "does not need help" on. A point about which I clearly disagree. I'm still ready to help out with them.

As far as a solution, I've written it numerous times---the data files need to be rationalised. If the parser is too broken to allow for that, then the parser needs to be rewritten. The data files are needlessly complicated and duplicative, QUITE APART FROM THE EXISTENCE OF SUPPLEMENTARY SOURCES. Anyone who spends any time actually working with the data sets knows this.



On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 22:49, Steven High via Groups.Io <stevenfordhigh=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Actually, I feel PCGen has done a very good job of dealing with multiple sources and their conflicts as far as identifying which are interdependent and which are exclusive; if you spend any time manipulating sources in the Advanced Sources list you very quickly see just how much effort went into that.

To the extent that file duplication is inherent in the sources, and the very real caution with which AM and his fellow designers should approach the alteration of source material provided by the Game Designer itself---say Pathfinder---your point is valid, and clearly the PCGen team made a real effort to be consistent with the Game Designer's vision while permitting the GM to be as crazy as we like to be.

Where your agrument breaks down---and I cannot speak at all to AM's comment about a quantitative view of "issues", as he is the expert there, clearly---is within the many data files themselves, within the sources loaded by the game's user interface.

If you've spent any times inside them---and I have spent a lot of time there, just so you are fully warned before you go off again---you find that very little consistency exists across the numerous files and filesets. To speak to AM's point about the long history of PCGen and its nature as an open-source project, it is clear that the more recent efforts **have** made attempts to exert standards and practices, and to ensure as much commonality as possible. One of the issues seems to be that successive file "Tsars" want to go in different directions, so that "the wheel" keeps getting reinvented; another is the scale of the files themselves, which makes it close to impossible to make wholesale changes in a single iteration of the PCGen engine--this second issue results in several "started-and-stopped" efforts at clean-up.

If you had spent any real time in the files, you'd have known those thing, and have known about the efforts to fix them, and recognised that it was a real problem. As you are clearly one of the "privledged few"---I see your name on the output files when I'm repairing them---one might have expected you to answer my comment with the same calm that AM did, but add some salient facts; like **why** there are so many starts and stops, and **why** the project seems unable to settle upon a standard for data files; after all, the choices of Java brought with it the absolute requirement for complexly-formatted data files.

But none of that answers some of the low-level "whys". For example, why is it that any given file might require two or three entries for the same item, in different lists? Why is it that a single data point---say, for example, a Weapon Bonus---has to be repeated two or three times in a single data entry? All of those redundancies create opportunities for error and anomaly, and make altering the data files, even for experienced editors, an onerous and error-prone task.

Good version control doesn't just protect a file from being edited by more than one person at a time, nor track progressive edits. It controls the process by which a project advances the technology employed and the technology being attempted---so that if a new technology should prove to trouble-probe, or unusuable, it can be "backed out" without the whole project collapsing. The data files supporting PCGen---and without which the programme is useless---are not well managed, however you want to split hairs over how you define the work of version control, and whatever the reasons.

Certainly the deluge of supplements and "campaigns" and etc... coming out of Gaming Companies is a huge burden, and quite probably beyond the resources of an all-volunteer effort; much less going back and enforcing one of the several "formats" envisioned for the data sets and the way they are loaded into the java engine. I do see that. Better than you, clearly. But that there is an explanation does not mean there is no problem.

On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 09:35, Ramon Menendez <shadowhmb@...> wrote:
TY... that might be the better way to go..... but I need tyo learn more on how to get the races working first... the subraces are already ther it seems.. just cant get them to work
On November 17, 2019 at 3:59 PM "Andrew Maitland via Groups.Io" <drew0500=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Several of the issues I've had "bug" reports over was just this exact thing. Someone loads every single Pathfinder source available, and then complain when the "rules" are wrong.

Barak is absolutely correct. PCGen is not responsible for the hundreds of published supplements that come out, change existing rules, use the same names multiple times but intend different objects from specific sources without naming them. There is a reason why KITS have a "FREE" tag, because even the publishers made mistakes in creating monsters that we had to be able to override the rules to replicate their examples. Or the fact that in order to support the more "popular" versions, I had to intentionally re-key so those duplicates would show up (Cause the community wanted to have a choice).

Anyways, I am not sure how PCGen has poor version control, or what exactly you intend to propose to fix it, since as far as I can see the files are coded to what the books say. However, the only way things improve is not criticism or dissent, but proposing viable solutions. Criticism and Dissent might not be "bad" but they are "negative" and volunteers doing a project with no compensation except the occasional "thanks" don't feel inspired to work on something when all they have is negative feedback.

As I mentioned earlier, most of us joined to add something to PCGen or to fix a problem. If you cannot code in Java, or have the time to tackle some LST or edit html, then at least offer a solution (x is y, but should be a).


As a side note, someone wanted to know how to add the languages to a race:

AUTO:LANG|Common|Language2|Language3

or

BONUS:LANG|AvailableLang1,AvailableLang2,AvailableLang3

And you place that on the race. You can also drop that onto a template and grant the template to the race. Handy for the races that have slightly different languages based upon a campaign setting.

Cheers,

Andrew


On 11/17/2019 6:50 AM, Barak wrote:
??I disagree with your conclusion.?? What those "issues" are from is the game system itself, not a lack of version control.

?? Haven't you noticed that the core system is "The Rules" and EVERY supplement is the breaking/changing of said rules??? There are additions as well, but the vast majority of supplemental books make changes to the existing rules (the changes running the gamut from expansion to direct contradiction) or even negate them entirely.?? The programmers cannot help that a user is expecting the rule from source A but has just loaded every supplement under the sun and caused the rule from source A to be over-ruled (pardon the pun) by the changed one from Source H.????

?? As I recall at one time there was a discussion of warning people of such things when they loaded data, but the conclusion was there were so many, even just loading a few sources that it just wouldn't be useful (I believe that "running out of memory" was another concern if someone loaded all the files and we tried to report every change to a core rule that would make).????

?? There are duplicates in the data (for the most part) because there are duplicates in the sources.?? All of the issues you are pointing out are in the sourcebooks as well, it's just not as noticeable because a human can wave aside anything that might be considered a conflict and move on.?? A computer program not so much.????

Barak


On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 2:27 PM Steven High < stevenfordhigh@...> wrote:
??There are whole swaths of file data that are duplicated, or rendered null, or in conflict with one another, &c, but all of which comprise a continuing source of error and confusion. That is poor version control.