Topics

How to Reincarnate a PC?


saxumcaribetum
 

So, it had to happen...

A character died, and the body was incomplete - so even if they could afford Raise Dead, they couldn't use it. Off to the friendly local Druid :-)

He agreed to Reincarnate the fellow... we got one of the simple transitions: Human to Gnome. It's now down to me to work through PCGen and lake it happen. It could have been worse: Bugbear, Gnoll,Lizardfolk, Troglodyte - all with racial HD not just character levels. For added fun, could have been one of those races in the first place...

First discovery - I can't find anything obvious to make the transition happen. Not Template or such.

* He retains all the class stuff, including HP. That implies that reincarnating as a race with Racial HD, you don't get them. Reincarnating from a race with Racial HD, you keep them (!).

* he loses Racial adjustments to Str, Dex, & Con, but keeps Int, Wis, & Cha.

* he gets a new adjustment from a table *which is not the normal Race table* (e.g.Human gets a fixed +2 Con.)

* I'll ignore negative levels - they had enough to components to cast Restoration.

* The reincarnated creature gains all the abilities associated with it's new form, including movement,..extraordinary abilities and the like.

* I'll presume for sanity and consistency that it *loses* the equivalents from the old race. (E.g. Troglodyte -> Bugbear!)

I presume further that if this fool were to lose his head (again!!) then the racial adjustments to undo would come from the Reincarnation table, not the current or original race.


So it looks to me as though there's a certain amount of manual adjustment. There may also be some .PCG hacking needed, too.

For instance, if reincarnating as a creature which normally has Racial HD, but does not in this case, then gaining class levels should not trigger the Ability Adjustments (+4, +4, +2, +2, -2). Nor lose them if previously applied (Troglodyte with class levels?).

Has anyone got some helpful suggestions for this?


saxumcaribetum
 

Oh yes - and Traits, too. Traits weren't around when the Core book was written, so the spell doesn't spell out how Race Traits (the half-feats, not the Racial Traits per ARG etc)are affected. I'm prepared to guess that you keep the ones you still qualify for?

If you were brought up in an Elf-only community (Elf Race Trait "Warrior of Old") then you keep it? But do you keep a Gnome's "Animal Friend" if the animals no longer perceive you as a Gnome?


On 19 March 2016 at 11:29 "TAYLOR NEIL saxum.caribetum@... [pcgen]" <pcgen@...> wrote:

So, it had to happen...

A character died, and the body was incomplete - so even if they could afford Raise Dead, they couldn't use it. Off to the friendly local Druid :-)

He agreed to Reincarnate the fellow... we got one of the simple transitions: Human to Gnome. It's now down to me to work through PCGen and lake it happen. It could have been worse: Bugbear, Gnoll,Lizardfolk, Troglodyte - all with racial HD not just character levels. For added fun, could have been one of those races in the first place...

First discovery - I can't find anything obvious to make the transition happen. Not Template or such.

* He retains all the class stuff, including HP. That implies that reincarnating as a race with Racial HD, you don't get them. Reincarnating from a race with Racial HD, you keep them (!).

* he loses Racial adjustments to Str, Dex, & Con, but keeps Int, Wis, & Cha.

* he gets a new adjustment from a table *which is not the normal Race table* (e.g.Human gets a fixed +2 Con.)

* I'll ignore negative levels - they had enough to components to cast Restoration.

* The reincarnated creature gains all the abilities associated with it's new form, including movement,..extraordinary abilities and the like.

* I'll presume for sanity and consistency that it *loses* the equivalents from the old race. (E.g. Troglodyte -> Bugbear!)

I presume further that if this fool were to lose his head (again!!) then the racial adjustments to undo would come from the Reincarnation table, not the current or original race.


So it looks to me as though there's a certain amount of manual adjustment. There may also be some .PCG hacking needed, too.

For instance, if reincarnating as a creature which normally has Racial HD, but does not in this case, then gaining class levels should not trigger the Ability Adjustments (+4, +4, +2, +2, -2). Nor lose them if previously applied (Troglodyte with class levels?).

Has anyone got some helpful suggestions for this?


 


Doug Limmer <adventure@...>
 

Some of those are questions for the DM/GM.  But, as far as PCGen goes, I'd probably write up a new character sheet from scratch.  It sounds like the only non-standard thing is ability scores, which one can directly modify as-is.

You could try changing the race, and seeing how close you get with just that.

DS/DL

On 03/19/2016 06:29 AM, TAYLOR NEIL saxum.caribetum@... [pcgen] wrote:
 

So, it had to happen...

A character died, and the body was incomplete - so even if they could afford Raise Dead, they couldn't use it. Off to the friendly local Druid :-)

He agreed to Reincarnate the fellow... we got one of the simple transitions: Human to Gnome. It's now down to me to work through PCGen and lake it happen. It could have been worse: Bugbear, Gnoll,Lizardfolk, Troglodyte - all with racial HD not just character levels. For added fun, could have been one of those races in the first place...

First discovery - I can't find anything obvious to make the transition happen. Not Template or such.

* He retains all the class stuff, including HP. That implies that reincarnating as a race with Racial HD, you don't get them. Reincarnating from a race with Racial HD, you keep them (!).

* he loses Racial adjustments to Str, Dex, & Con, but keeps Int, Wis, & Cha.

* he gets a new adjustment from a table *which is not the normal Race table* (e.g.Human gets a fixed +2 Con.)

* I'll ignore negative levels - they had enough to components to cast Restoration.

* The reincarnated creature gains all the abilities associated with it's new form, including movement,..extraordinary abilities and the like.

* I'll presume for sanity and consistency that it *loses* the equivalents from the old race. (E.g. Troglodyte -> Bugbear!)

I presume further that if this fool were to lose his head (again!!) then the racial adjustments to undo would come from the Reincarnation table, not the current or original race.


So it looks to me as though there's a certain amount of manual adjustment. There may also be some .PCG hacking needed, too.

For instance, if reincarnating as a creature which normally has Racial HD, but does not in this case, then gaining class levels should not trigger the Ability Adjustments (+4, +4, +2, +2, -2). Nor lose them if previously applied (Troglodyte with class levels?).

Has anyone got some helpful suggestions for this?



Andrew Maitland
 

Ow, my head hurts trying to keep straight what you keep, and what you'd lose.

Since there is a chart, I suppose you could apply a template that grants the reincarnated stuff. But the lack of clear guidance on some of issues means this would be a moving target issue.

I cannot even attempt to code something without a clear "a impacts b which grants c" logic to work with. I can enable and disable quite a lot, but the problem is much of that is unknown.

Get a publisher explanation and I will think on a solution.

If your DM/GM has a clear idea of what happens, then I can help you set up your homebrew solution.

Cheers,

Andrew


On 3/19/2016 8:07 AM, Doug Limmer adventure@... [pcgen] wrote:
Some of those are questions for the DM/GM.  But, as far as PCGen goes, I'd probably write up a new character sheet from scratch.  It sounds like the only non-standard thing is ability scores, which one can directly modify as-is.

You could try changing the race, and seeing how close you get with just that.

DS/DL

On 03/19/2016 06:29 AM, TAYLOR NEIL saxum.caribetum@... [pcgen] wrote:
 

So, it had to happen...

A character died, and the body was incomplete - so even if they could afford Raise Dead, they couldn't use it. Off to the friendly local Druid :-)

He agreed to Reincarnate the fellow... we got one of the simple transitions: Human to Gnome. It's now down to me to work through PCGen and lake it happen. It could have been worse: Bugbear, Gnoll,Lizardfolk, Troglodyte - all with racial HD not just character levels. For added fun, could have been one of those races in the first place...

First discovery - I can't find anything obvious to make the transition happen. Not Template or such.

* He retains all the class stuff, including HP. That implies that reincarnating as a race with Racial HD, you don't get them. Reincarnating from a race with Racial HD, you keep them (!).

* he loses Racial adjustments to Str, Dex, & Con, but keeps Int, Wis, & Cha.

* he gets a new adjustment from a table *which is not the normal Race table* (e.g.Human gets a fixed +2 Con.)

* I'll ignore negative levels - they had enough to components to cast Restoration.

* The reincarnated creature gains all the abilities associated with it's new form, including movement,..extraordinary abilities and the like.

* I'll presume for sanity and consistency that it *loses* the equivalents from the old race. (E.g. Troglodyte -> Bugbear!)

I presume further that if this fool were to lose his head (again!!) then the racial adjustments to undo would come from the Reincarnation table, not the current or original race.


So it looks to me as though there's a certain amount of manual adjustment. There may also be some .PCG hacking needed, too.

For instance, if reincarnating as a creature which normally has Racial HD, but does not in this case, then gaining class levels should not trigger the Ability Adjustments (+4, +4, +2, +2, -2). Nor lose them if previously applied (Troglodyte with class levels?).

Has anyone got some helpful suggestions for this?




saxumcaribetum
 

On 2016-03-19 15:47, Andrew drew0500@... [pcgen] wrote:
Ow, my head hurts trying to keep straight what you keep, and what you'd lose.

Since there is a chart, I suppose you could apply a template that grants the reincarnated stuff. But the lack of clear guidance on some of issues means this would be a moving target issue.

I cannot even attempt to code something without a clear "a impacts b which grants c" logic to work with. I can enable and disable quite a lot, but the problem is much of that is unknown.

Been thinking overnight.
What I most need is guidance and advice on how to amend an existing character, and what support I can get from the PCGen program (and where, if anywhere, it makes life difficult).

Things I want to make work, and am happy to rule on include
* was Human: keep the initial Feat (per a DM (me!) decision) and the +1 SP/level up to current level - the Skills are life experiences like Class training.
* was Elf: keep the weapon proficiencies (from time as youth)
* become Halfling: do *not* gain racial weapon proficiencies (no youth time)
* lose bodily functions (movement, low-light vision, darkvision, energy resistance), and gain new ones.

My thought overnight is:

* since both races (whichever they are) are Standard Races - no weird properties
* I can take the relevant properties from each and make a "Elf-to-Halfling reincarnated" one-off race.
* I can either create a proper Race in LST, or use the ARG Race Builder
* all the bog-standard races can be coded in the ARG, and the point cost illustrates how neutral the re-build is.
* the ARG will bypass any built-in Racial HD (e.g. reincarnate as Bugbear)
* ARG won't know how to cope if I reincarnate a spirit which started life as a Bugbear.

So how tolerant is PCGen at taking an 8th level character and removing one race and adding another?


Get a publisher explanation and I will think on a solution.

If your DM/GM has a clear idea of what happens, then I can help you set up your homebrew solution.

DM is me - I'mboth  DM and PCGen wrangler...


Cheers,

Andrew


On 3/19/2016 8:07 AM, Doug Limmer adventure@... [pcgen] wrote:
Some of those are questions for the DM/GM.  But, as far as PCGen goes, I'd probably write up a new character sheet from scratch.  It sounds like the only non-standard thing is ability scores, which one can directly modify as-is.

You could try changing the race, and seeing how close you get with just that.

DS/DL

On 03/19/2016 06:29 AM, TAYLOR NEIL saxum.caribetum@... [pcgen] wrote:
 

So, it had to happen...

A character died, and the body was incomplete - so even if they could afford Raise Dead, they couldn't use it. Off to the friendly local Druid :-)

He agreed to Reincarnate the fellow... we got one of the simple transitions: Human to Gnome. It's now down to me to work through PCGen and lake it happen. It could have been worse: Bugbear, Gnoll,Lizardfolk, Troglodyte - all with racial HD not just character levels. For added fun, could have been one of those races in the first place...

First discovery - I can't find anything obvious to make the transition happen. Not Template or such.

* He retains all the class stuff, including HP. That implies that reincarnating as a race with Racial HD, you don't get them. Reincarnating from a race with Racial HD, you keep them (!).

* he loses Racial adjustments to Str, Dex, & Con, but keeps Int, Wis, & Cha.

* he gets a new adjustment from a table *which is not the normal Race table* (e.g.Human gets a fixed +2 Con.)

* I'll ignore negative levels - they had enough to components to cast Restoration.

* The reincarnated creature gains all the abilities associated with it's new form, including movement,..extraordinary abilities and the like.

* I'll presume for sanity and consistency that it *loses* the equivalents from the old race. (E.g. Troglodyte -> Bugbear!)

I presume further that if this fool were to lose his head (again!!) then the racial adjustments to undo would come from the Reincarnation table, not the current or original race.


So it looks to me as though there's a certain amount of manual adjustment. There may also be some .PCG hacking needed, too.

For instance, if reincarnating as a creature which normally has Racial HD, but does not in this case, then gaining class levels should not trigger the Ability Adjustments (+4, +4, +2, +2, -2). Nor lose them if previously applied (Troglodyte with class levels?).

Has anyone got some helpful suggestions for this?




-- 
Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/
Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.
www.avast.com


Andrew Maitland
 

PCGen will easily switch races.

I can easily make Reincarnate work without changing your base Race. It sounds like you just need a specific hardcoded setup and not the proper system built that would be required if I was to do this for pcgen.

So good news, you will need to make a single template. However, this group is about answering questions, not about giving actual lst code samples. We need to move this conversation to the proper venue for that. We can move to simple email, you can post on listfilehelp, or the homebrew forum over at groups.pcgen.org.

I am easy, plenty of options.

Cheers,
Andrew

On 3/20/2016 3:39 AM, Saxum Caribetum saxum.caribetum@... [pcgen] wrote:
On 2016-03-19 15:47, Andrew drew0500@... [pcgen] wrote:
Ow, my head hurts trying to keep straight what you keep, and what you'd lose.

Since there is a chart, I suppose you could apply a template that grants the reincarnated stuff. But the lack of clear guidance on some of issues means this would be a moving target issue.

I cannot even attempt to code something without a clear "a impacts b which grants c" logic to work with. I can enable and disable quite a lot, but the problem is much of that is unknown.

Been thinking overnight.
What I most need is guidance and advice on how to amend an existing character, and what support I can get from the PCGen program (and where, if anywhere, it makes life difficult).

Things I want to make work, and am happy to rule on include
* was Human: keep the initial Feat (per a DM (me!) decision) and the +1 SP/level up to current level - the Skills are life experiences like Class training.
* was Elf: keep the weapon proficiencies (from time as youth)
* become Halfling: do *not* gain racial weapon proficiencies (no youth time)
* lose bodily functions (movement, low-light vision, darkvision, energy resistance), and gain new ones.

My thought overnight is:

* since both races (whichever they are) are Standard Races - no weird properties
* I can take the relevant properties from each and make a "Elf-to-Halfling reincarnated" one-off race.
* I can either create a proper Race in LST, or use the ARG Race Builder
* all the bog-standard races can be coded in the ARG, and the point cost illustrates how neutral the re-build is.
* the ARG will bypass any built-in Racial HD (e.g. reincarnate as Bugbear)
* ARG won't know how to cope if I reincarnate a spirit which started life as a Bugbear.

So how tolerant is PCGen at taking an 8th level character and removing one race and adding another?


Get a publisher explanation and I will think on a solution.

If your DM/GM has a clear idea of what happens, then I can help you set up your homebrew solution.

DM is me - I'mboth  DM and PCGen wrangler...


Cheers,

Andrew


On 3/19/2016 8:07 AM, Doug Limmer adventure@... [pcgen] wrote:
Some of those are questions for the DM/GM.  But, as far as PCGen goes, I'd probably write up a new character sheet from scratch.  It sounds like the only non-standard thing is ability scores, which one can directly modify as-is.

You could try changing the race, and seeing how close you get with just that.

DS/DL

On 03/19/2016 06:29 AM, TAYLOR NEIL saxum.caribetum@... [pcgen] wrote:
 

So, it had to happen...

A character died, and the body was incomplete - so even if they could afford Raise Dead, they couldn't use it. Off to the friendly local Druid :-)

He agreed to Reincarnate the fellow... we got one of the simple transitions: Human to Gnome. It's now down to me to work through PCGen and lake it happen. It could have been worse: Bugbear, Gnoll,Lizardfolk, Troglodyte - all with racial HD not just character levels. For added fun, could have been one of those races in the first place...

First discovery - I can't find anything obvious to make the transition happen. Not Template or such.

* He retains all the class stuff, including HP. That implies that reincarnating as a race with Racial HD, you don't get them. Reincarnating from a race with Racial HD, you keep them (!).

* he loses Racial adjustments to Str, Dex, & Con, but keeps Int, Wis, & Cha.

* he gets a new adjustment from a table *which is not the normal Race table* (e.g.Human gets a fixed +2 Con.)

* I'll ignore negative levels - they had enough to components to cast Restoration.

* The reincarnated creature gains all the abilities associated with it's new form, including movement,..extraordinary abilities and the like.

* I'll presume for sanity and consistency that it *loses* the equivalents from the old race. (E.g. Troglodyte -> Bugbear!)

I presume further that if this fool were to lose his head (again!!) then the racial adjustments to undo would come from the Reincarnation table, not the current or original race.


So it looks to me as though there's a certain amount of manual adjustment. There may also be some .PCG hacking needed, too.

For instance, if reincarnating as a creature which normally has Racial HD, but does not in this case, then gaining class levels should not trigger the Ability Adjustments (+4, +4, +2, +2, -2). Nor lose them if previously applied (Troglodyte with class levels?).

Has anyone got some helpful suggestions for this?




-- 
Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/
Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.
www.avast.com


Paul Grosse
 

Why not simply remake the character with the ARG race builder? The extra feats and skills can be handled with the GM awards.


Andrew Maitland
 

Hi Paul,

Hassle and integrity.

My idea is you trigger re-incarnate, you select the race that you are being reincarnated into to grant specific items.

Race then displays as Human (Reincarnated Gnome)

We can trigger stat changes fairly easy, and racial grants. Especially with the new changes in the formula parser, SET movement to new rate, assign new racial abilities and remove others.

MODIFYOTHER:Race|GROUP=Reincarnate|Abilities|SET|None
MODIFYOTHER:Stat|GROUP=Physical|Racial|SET|0|PRIORITY=500
MODIFYOTHER:Move|Walk|Speed|SET|20|PRIORITY=500

Completely doable. Old system, which I don't have the inclination to go about doing with the lack of clarity, utilize the kill triggers on racial abilities that should no longer appear. Stats are a pain, but feasible, and movement would need a make over.

Cheers,
Andrew


On 3/21/2016 4:52 AM, nylanfs@... [pcgen] wrote:
Why not simply remake the character with the ARG race builder? The extra feats and skills can be handled with the GM awards.


dave_the_ferret
 

So you could effectively set the reincarnatable races as subraces of every other possible race? Surely that would require customising for each possible race?


saxumcaribetum
 

On 2016-03-22 09:53, ferret.griffin@... [pcgen] wrote:
So you could effectively set the reincarnatable races as subraces of every other possible race? Surely that would require customising for each possible race?

well, yes - but you only have to actually do it for the specific pairs which crop up in your campaign.

And, if you are making value-judgements as to which features are kept v s. swapped, then it's difficult to program everything in advance.
-- 
Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/
Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.
www.avast.com


Andrew Maitland
 

Hi,

The saving grace here is there is only 14 preselected choices.

The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn't automatically speak the language of the new form.


 It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitutionscores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject of the spell gains two permanentnegative levels when it is reincarnated. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be reincarnated).

When the new parser is completed, this will be much much easier. New possibilities are opening up.

Cheers,
Andrew

On 3/22/2016 3:27 AM, Saxum Caribetum saxum.caribetum@... [pcgen] wrote:
On 2016-03-22 09:53, ferret.griffin@... [pcgen] wrote:
So you could effectively set the reincarnatable races as subraces of every other possible race? Surely that would require customising for each possible race?


Stefan Radermacher
 

Am 22.03.16 um 15:25 schrieb Andrew drew0500@... [pcgen]:
The saving grace here is there is only 14 preselected choices.
With Inner Sea Races, this is no longer true. There is a huge new alternate table. The good thing is that this table no longer has any races with racial hit dice.

Stefan


Andrew Maitland
 

Well, tables is limited, so that works.

As I mentioned before, not doing anything until the conversion is done. All I'm doing is fixing bugs, and tracking down my error message about a hide skill inside of pathfinder.... ARG!

Cheers,
Andrew

On 3/22/2016 11:54 AM, Stefan Radermacher stefan@... [pcgen] wrote:
Am 22.03.16 um 15:25 schrieb Andrew drew0500@... [pcgen]:


saxumcaribetum
 

On 2016-03-22 14:25, Andrew drew0500@... [pcgen] wrote:
Hi,

The saving grace here is there is only 14 preselected choices.

Inner Sea Races p.193 replaces the table with one specific to Golarion, and extends the list to 41 races.


The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn't automatically speak the language of the new form.


 It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitutionscores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject of the spell gains two permanentnegative levels when it is reincarnated. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be reincarnated).

When the new parser is completed, this will be much much easier. New possibilities are opening up.

:-)

-- 
Neil Taylor "Creo Imaginem Mente"
ArM Code 1.5 5++ Ca++ R++p H++ ?L Y(96) T(5)- SG+++ G++++ P++ HoH(Ma++ Q+ Hg+) Fz(E)++ C++ :-) Cd++
Saga site at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/saxum.caribetum/
Sub Rosa Ars Magica zine - http://www.subrosamagazine.org/

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.
www.avast.com